This is a little off the beaten path for me, so pardon me while I delve into religion and theology for a moment…
Maybe it’s the lapsed (and thus guilt-ridden) Catholic in me, but I really resent Not a Ferry Fan and other’s attacks on Frank Ferry for his comment that God doesn’t distinguish between American and non-American in the February City Council meeting.
Here it is played again in NAFF’s latest and quite possibly blasphemous video in which he takes on the voice of God and schools Frank Ferry on how sinful the illegals are:
After Ferry said this in early February, some said he was putting his allegiance to Cardinal Roger Mahoney before his allegiance to the City of Santa Clarita.
I say so what? So what if Ferry’s position on illegal immigration is informed by his Catholicism? Guess what, mine is too! The question for local conservatives and Christians is why aren’t your views on immigration shaped by your faith first and foremost rather than conservative political orthodoxy?
I’ll let Catholic theologian Richard Benson take over:
Every human being is created in the image of God and is both unique and equal. Some letters to editors refer to undocumented immigrants as “illegals.” I find this appalling language. Apart from the fact that it is bad grammar, it is a type of objectification of others reminiscent of the worst kind of racial profiling. No human being is ever to be reduced to being totally or even primarily identified by the color of their skin, their country of origin, their legal status or any other external characteristic. Every human being is first and foremost a person. In the book of Genesis, Scripture reveals that every human being is created as “imago Dei,” i.e. the image of God. Every human person is the child of God and therefore every human is a part of the family of God. We are sisters and brothers.
Local conservatives and Christians ought to be outraged when know-nothings like Not a Ferry Fan and Pastor Yancey take a person’s legal status before a human-created government and equate it with their standing before everlasting God. As if God would fault a poor man for crossing an arbitrary line on a map in order to better care for his family!
“Oh Jeff, you just don’t understand. The illegals are breaking the law! They’re illegal!” they shout.
But there is a higher law! A law and a law-giver who commands us to treat fellow human beings with respect, dignity and love. Whether that is a Catholic law, a Christian law, the Golden Rule, karma or any other principle that decent religious people have believed in and fought for throughout the ages, it is a higher law than United States Code or ICE regulations.
Shame on you!
I hope Frank Ferry doesn’t back down at tonight’s Council meeting. I hope he stands for his principles and yes, his Catholic beliefs.
Now back to your regularly scheduled City Council election intrigue.
Jeff,
Are you saying I should NOT walk away from churches that preach economic and justice?
So what would you and Ferry propose- open borders to all?
He would probably propose something along the lines of CC#2241
2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.
And become legal and pay their own way!
Great post. Recognizing the inherent worth and humanity of immigrants, as well as their status as children of God should never be something that causes controversy. It’s a sad world where an illegal immigrant is regarded as subhuman.
Also, it strikes me as pathetic that Mr. Ferry is receiving criticism for allowing his religion to influence his perspective. Unless I’m way wrong here (and I doubt that), many of those who are criticizing Mr. Ferry have views on issues like abortion and gay marriage that are very religion-derived.
I still fail to understand why members of city leadership are meddling in illegal immigration. This isn’t chulavistatalk.com. We are 155 miles from the border, people.
I don’t think the Catholic church has done any favors with their views on birth control and women’s issues.
Don’t you think it is time to think for yourself?
The Catholic Church can go pound sand for all I care. In fact, how about they start to pony up some funds to pay for what they have sewn.
Last time I read the Bible I didn’t see anything in there about illegal immigration.
Therefore is seems as the higher calling on this matter is from folks like Cardinal Mahoney who sheltered pedophile priests.
Don’t know about you but I am not inspired by this man.
Keith, as long as people keep saying it isn’t our problem, the problem will continue to get worse. Time for each one of us to take responsibility. Illegal aliens ARE treated as sub-human. It does not do them any service to continue this farce. Send them home and ease up legal immigration. Then nobody has to live in the shadows.
Okay, CC, but this latest chunk of controversy came because Mr. Ferry declared that God doesn’t distinguish between American and non-American. This shouldn’t be controversial. I have the same worth before God as the illegal immigrant sending money home to his family. That is a fact.
And secondly, city council action is useless, as we can do NOTHING from the SCV to stem the tide of immigrants. You’d be much better off lobbying the state, or asking Mr. McKeon to bring this up in Congress.
“The question for local conservatives and Christians is why aren’t your views on immigration shaped by your faith first and foremost rather than conservative political orthodoxy?”
Simple & brilliant. Great post Jeff.
New report on KHTS:
http://hometownstation.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19572:illegal-immigrants-la-2010-03-09-12-04&catid=26:local-news&Itemid=97
“I have the same worth as the illegal immigrant sending money home to his family. That is a fact.”
Works just as well this way…you know…for the Atheists in the room.
Scott: that’s absolutely true. I was just maintaining the same perspective as the original Ferry statement.
I disagree that we can do nothing here in SCV. It may be small but the first thing we do is stop tolerating it. How many successful campaigns came about from locals who just couldn’t tolerate it anymore? I’m sorry, I just don’t buy the helpless routine. We are NOT helpless.
Last time I read the Bible I didn’t see anything in there about illegal immigration.
You need to read it more carefully. Look up “alien” and “foreigner” in a concordance. Non-Jews, for example, were prohibited from partaking in specific activities in the nation of Israel, especially as it pertained to Levitical rites.
“The question for local conservatives and Christians is why aren’t your views on immigration shaped by your faith first and foremost rather than conservative political orthodoxy?”
As a Bible believing Christian, my views on immigration are shaped by my faith. My “faith” also demands I obey the laws of the land in which I live as long as those “laws” keep me from violating biblical mandates.
According to the law of the land, what would be the United States, illegal immigration is what it is: illegal. It doesn’t matter how noble the person may be who is coming here illegally, he is breaking our laws. Thus, the enforcement of those laws against illegal immigration don’t violate any of God’s laws, nor do they violate the image of God in man.
Jeff,
Well said.
And especially good for standing up for your beliefs.
People are, and should be, shaped by teachings of their Faith, just as much as by the teachings they receive in school or at home, both of which may be imperfect but shape the individual.
CC,
It is extremely difficult, but not impossible, to enact anything meaningful at the local level without getting tangled up in court.
Any perceived “savings” is likely to be offset by legal exposure.
The point many of us have made is that the most productive use of your time would be spent lobbying your federal representatives, not the City Council.
What City business was bumped so we can discuss this Federal issue?
I go back to my ridiculous example of lobbying CLWA to do something about illegal immigration, because, after all, it impacts our water supply, doesn’t it?! This is not a far stretch from the truth.
I would be happy if our City Council would simply Lobby our Federal representatives. That is within their power and they have a hell of a lot bigger voice than I do on that level. Sure, we can’t start arresting people, but we sure can turn them over to immigration if we pick them up for other reasons. There are things we can do that do not involved a wholesale assault. But to do nothing is pathetic.
As for what City business was bumped, I am just fine with bumping the agenda item to put a statue of Ronald Reagan in Newhall, or “In God We Trust” on City property, or how about Mayor-dude, or agreeing to place signs to point to auto road, or every other ineffecutal thing they currently do. They can certainly afford to take the time to write a few letters.
Fred and Need:
Leviticus 19:33-34 (King James Version)
“And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself, for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”
This is why I am not voting for Dave Gauny. He is vexing me.
Fred:
Slavery used to be the law of the land as well as child labor.
Literal Biblical interpretation fun!! Woo hoo!!
Jeff’s quote from CC#2241 says: “Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.”
BGH says: Illegal aliens are not guests. A guest is invited or asks permission before entering. Therefore, an illegal is not entitled to our legal protection or other benefits.
Jeff’s quote from CC#2241 says: “Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.”
BGH says: This is in fact a major part of the problem. Many illegal aliens do not respect the heritage, spiritual or otherwise, of this great country. They are not grateful and demand more and more in free services provided by taxpayers. The very same services that taxpayers themselves do not receive free of charge. They do not obey the laws, first and foremost, by entering illegally. Enough of them commit other crimes that they are a large population of our incarcerated again at taxpayer expense. They and their children are the civic burdens.
As to Catholicism: Jeff if you and Cardinal Mahoney feel so strongly, why are you not sponsoring illegal aliens for legal immigration? At least that way you are risking your own money, reputation, etc and not those of the rest of us who are not willing to support “your guests”.
Our tax collecting agencies should be taxing the Catholic Church and others who have given up their non-profit status by providing sanctuary and aiding and abetting those who break the law. Our state of California coffers would be in the black if someone in Sacramento had the guts to do that. See how fast Mahoney and others would change their tune regarding sanctuary! Are you listening elected officials?
In my home, even for invited guests, there are certain rules and norms, which are expected to be respected, such as no smoking indoors. If any guest were to create a problem for me in my own home, I would politely ask them to leave. If they failed to voluntarily leave, I would throw them out. Physically if necessary. Moreover, they would have a very clear understanding not to come back!
Bringing God into the discussion has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, should God have simply allowed Adam and Eve to remain in the garden after violating His law? They were the first ones evicted/deported for not following the rules!
God loves us all, sinner and saint but I was taught, as a child raised a Catholic in parochial schools and a convent, He expects us to follow the rules, His rules and others too, and help ourselves, not rely on every one else’s charity.
Well said Fred.
Slavery used to be the law of the land as well as child labor..
Yes. And evangelical Christians were the ones who pushed to get those things eliminated. Those are items that do violate specific biblical commands and the “image of God” in man.
I have yet to see anyone here raise a specific, current day immigration law that violates either one of those biblical mandates. In other words, none of those laws against illegal immigration violates anything mentioned in that passage in Leviticus 19 you cited.
Go watch Glenn Beck and work on your next cookie cutter blog or inflammatory video Rob, since you can’t even keep SCVtalk conversations on SCVtalk…
—–>
“Yes. And evangelical Christians were the ones who pushed to get those things eliminated. ”
Really? Seems to me the Bible belt conservative old democrats were very much for keeping slavery even though most of the south didn’t own slaves.
It was the radical progressive Republicans who had this new idea of ending slavery.
Child labor was adopted by the democrats as a platform in 1892 during the beginning of the realignment period. Where Republicans became conservative and Democrats became more liberal.
Quit trying to change history Fred.
@Everyone: for the record, I am not the one behind “Not A Ferry Fan” – Shows how much you know Mr Monk.
This is my work
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuxjuHQdlGQ&w=480&h=360]
Sorry, doesn’t look like YouTube embedding works on this site. Here’s the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuxjuHQdlGQ
BGH:
Could you please hit a space between your paragraphs before I go completely blind!
Tim: I think that’s just an old wives tale. Oh wait….
Poor Timmy may go blind reading Berta’s brilliant comments. Hah!
There are Catholics and then there are actual Catholics. Big Fat Teddy deemed himself a catholic yet he condoned murder of pre born infants and he did walk away from Mary Jo. Go figure.
Scvguy, yeah can’t trust a guy who talks to himself on his own blog
Bill do all catholic need to take orders from HQ to be a ‘good catholic”?
Blazer, are you an idiot or just uneducated?
Come on Bill, Name calling? Thought we were past this.
Blazer, it’s a serious question! What do you think Catholicism is all about. Are there diferent levels where it’s okay to murder the unborn or not, leave a woman to drown or not and commit adultry or not? This is Big Fat Teddy’s legacy. Don’t you see that!? If not, then you are an idiot or uneducated or you have no principles. I realize it’s easier for liberals to live in a nuanced gray world, so rest easy… not much is expected of you… adults will take care to preserve America as they always have. Out.
I feel sorry for you.
Timmy: maybe just until you need glasses…
Bill: wow, thanks. Brilliant, huh. Last week it was a different “b” word, but not from you…
Changing History? It sounds as though you believe in the Howard Zinn alternative universe history.
Both child labor reform and anti-slavery legislation began in Europe, specifically England led by the then growing evangelical movement by such social reforming figures as William Wilberforce, Granville Sharp, and Count Zinzendorf. It was their effective work in changing the collective mindset of the populace against these evils that moved people to pass laws against them.
The progressives you reference were basically playing catch up with the work evangelical Christians had started a century before.
Really? Seems to me the Bible belt conservative old democrats were very much for keeping slavery even though most of the south didn’t own slaves.
The south was not called the “Bible Belt” until the mid-1920s; After the post-industrial fundamentalist revolution in the 1880s. The South was not considered “deeply” religious during the pre-Civil War era. In fact, it was the Civil War that brought about something of a spiritual revival among the people.
Child labor was adopted by the democrats as a platform in 1892 during the beginning of the realignment period. Where Republicans became conservative and Democrats became more liberal.
Okay. And the Democrats were big supporters of eugenics, too. But what does that prove?
Amen. Great entry.
Fred’s response is one of the most circular things I have ever read.
Did Bill just say “Out”?
Isn’t a bitter curmudgeons use of Seacrest-based language another sign of the apocalypse?
If he starts quoting Chuck Woolery, I’m headed for my bomb shelter.
Fred, you write very well. I appreciate you trying to reason with Monk, but you aren’t getting anywhere. Trying to make child slavery into a republican/democrat issue is obsurd.
Jeff: Some commenters are trying to detract from your original message, but I applaud your opinion. And I second, putting SHAME on not a Ferry Fan.
Need: You really need to do some research first before you start spouting off statements. The bible speaks on immigrants ALL OVER THE PLACE.
@Jess – Fred’s response is one of the most circular things I have ever read.
as in circular reasoning… I would agree
@gangfang – Did Bill just say “Out”?
HAHA
@Fred – Europe as a whole found America hypocritical in it slavery stance. Some evangelicals were out spoken against slavery. That doesn’t mean they lead anything. They may have helped but to credit it to them is dishonest or misinformed. The Founding fathers saw the contradiction of Slavery in America as did many in America’s short history.
You are wrong, The church has always been a pillar of the south, mainly because they didn’t have the big cities that north had. However the point still stands, it was the Christian south that held a sense of pride in institution of slavery.
Your point that some how Christianity was the driving force behind the ending slavery is very false.
Catholic Church – Are you talking about the same catholic church that tells the homeless to get off their property and made news when they were caught doing so at the (then) newly opened $200+ million dollar church downtown? That’s 200+ million bucks that were tax free by the way.
@monk (Aka: N81, aka: Nathon Imhoff) don’t you think you’ve had enough? Now you’re calling my wife a bitch. Really?
You’ve just crossed the line.
BTW Jeff, nice mobile app, copying me now? I thought we had a deal? I guess not. Games on.
Rob, you invented WordPress? I’m so impressed.
You copied me first when you ditched Joomla and went with Word Press. I’ve been a Word Press user since 2007.
But I do give you credit for finding the freely-available, GPL-licensed WPTouch plugin. Nice find Rob!
A man without an original bone in his body thinks that adding a plugin counts as a creation. Next, he’ll blame squatters of scvtalk.info for biting his idea.
Ha ha. J! And WP have their uses. I only used WP because scvblogs.com is just a blog site.
Jeff, what are we going to do about your nasty friend smearing my name, spreading lies and now calling my wife names? I can’t see this turning out good for anyone associated with Nathan Imhoff aka blazingmonk
@Loyal (gee @monk you sure seem to have an identity crisis) as usual you put words in my mouth, no one said anything about creation.
I have nothing to do with any comments posted on this site other than the ones posted under my name.
I advise you to take it up with the comment author directly via email or your choice of communication.
Wrong. You’ve implicated yourself on Twitter by having conversations with him, invites to meet up, etc. It’s easy to prove the association.
Wow Rob, takes some audacity to act like someone took your idea, when it was really someone else’s idea. Aside from post one, what does your blog have to do with SCV, anyway? All I see are links to Glenn Beck and copy/pastes of urban legend chain emails. Don’t we already have crazy relatives for that?*
It’s good to see you fighting this battle yourself this time.
*before you lose it, “we” means everyone and not you or a particular family member of yours.
Jeff – you’ve met this person! Therefore, you are responsible for everything he says!
I have no idea what you’re talking about Rob.
There is a standing policy on SCVTalk prohibiting name calling. I have moderated comments before.
I don’t see where your wife was called a name in this thread or any others, maybe you can point it out? This site gets about 1,200 comments per month, I might have missed it.
I will edit/delete the comment right away.
email me at jeff at scvtalk.com
Not all the posts were done here, some on other sites. The bottomline is that it’s gotten out of hand and it needs to stop. The evidence shows the whole story.
You have associations with some of your posters and by that very definition (see Kellar, Tea Party and illegal immigration posts) on your own blogs, this makes you part of the team.
Also, posting on company time? Is that allowed?
Rob, do you have this web of association all sketched out on a chalkboard, Glenn Beck style?
Always with the underhanded tactics – steal ideas, squat domains, send your sister to fight for you, threaten a man’s job. Weak, weak, weak, weak.
Moderating my posts Jeff? Don’t want the world to see the truth?
No, I’m moderating everyone’s posts. I agree no one’s family should be attacked so I’ve turned on moderation to cool things down a little bit.
Check your email Rob.