Just what the hell is going on in Valencia Summit these days?
One of Awesometown’s nicest and most mature neighborhoods is stewing in bitterness, resentment, suspicion and enough intrigue to make the screen writers of Desperate Housewives blush.
Case in point: the strange case of the Summit Seals youth swim team. One would think an HOA youth swimming league wouldn’t arouse much controversy in Santa Clarita. After all, this place was built as a conformity factory for children. It’s why people move here: to raise their offspring in a healthy, safe, and supportive environment so that someday they too can become good suburban residents.
And there’s no place more built for children & families than Valencia with its meandering paseos, good schools, club houses, and, of course, pools and swim teams.
From what I’ve been hearing, the HOA swim teams of Valencia have existed for decades without much controversy. SCVTalk’s comment section has been bursting at the seams with people writing passionately about what the swim teams meant to them when they were young kids growing up in Valencia. By all accounts, the swim teams were -and remain- a positive, healthy, and fun activity for kids, their parents, and the community at large.
Until 2009-10 apparently.
Background on the Swim Team Dispute
Enter the Stratford HOA board, a sub-unit of the Master Association Summit HOA that represents 210 homes and townhomes at the top of the Summit neighborhood. The Stratford HOA has five board members and makes decisions affecting only the 210 homes in the Stratford complex. They have three pools that only they can use, but they pay dues to both the Stratford HOA and the Master Association HOA (representing 1019 homeowners).
Stratford’s complaints about the Summit Seals began in early 2009 and centered on cost, and, I kid you not, “overly use of the common area pool” . From the HOA’s February 2009 Minutes:
From there, say swim team parents and boosters, Stratford escalated the action against the Master Association’s swim team. By the fall, they had hired lawyers and centered their opposition to the Summit Seals on the grounds that the team was a liability for the community at large.
Stratford representatives, or those who are sympathetic with them, have posted on SCVTalk remarking that only 10% of the homeowners in the Summit have children on the swim team. They allege that swim parents are violating CC&Rs and say that the swim teams aren’t paying dues for the pool usage. Here’s one comment posted earlier this week:
Here’s the problem, for too many years pro swim team board members have disregarded our CC&R’s which clearly state that these activities are not allowed. Pool rules state diving is not allowed and signs are posted, yet the swim team members dive anyway. Homeowners are required to rent the facilities but the swim team gets a free pass.As our community has matured, homeowners have become intolerant of the favoritism and encroachment on “homeowners rights of enjoyment” by the entitlement meantality of swim team families which represent less than 10% of the community.Liability remains a huge issue and it’s unclear that the swim team has proper coverage. The Summit board agreed to suspend swim team activity until a resolution was met and the Summit board promptly violated that agreement by approving a new swim team contract.
Swim parents and boosters say they have been responsive to Stratford’s multiple and changing complaints. They tick off a list of accommodations:
- Insurance liability raised from $1 million to $5 million, more than any other swim team in the SCV according to the parents
- Practice times changes from 3-7pm to 2-6 pm
- Eliminated championship meet-up at the pool
- Eliminated annual parent vs kids’ water polo game
- Eliminated “Dive in Movie” night
- Also forbid children from diving into the pool; swimmers now have to push off while in the pool
As a result of these changes, swim parents pay 50% more in dues. The practice sessions take place only during the summer for four hours, five days a week for a total of six weeks. Actual competition meets are held Saturday mornings from 8-12. Swim team boosters say they use the pool for a total of about 128 hours during a given season.
Filming Kids?
But the accommodations haven’t been enough apparently because last week, the drama between Stratford and the swim teams reached a new and rather creepy level.
On Saturday, representatives of Stratford’s management company sent two individuals (including a PI who is a former LAPD officer according to the company) to film a swim meet in the Summit. A swim parent, quick on his toes and cognizant of the controversy, decided to point the camera back at the two individuals:
The individual who filmed the two men said that they were acting to “protect” the HOA.
The Stratford management company denies that the men were filming children and says they were acting only to film “the swim team board and participating parents” for litigation purposes:
With respect to filming Saturday’s registration: (1) the Stratford board are Stratford homeowners and have the right to be on common property they pay for; (2) no one was filming the children; (3) Stratford filmed the swim team board and participating parents at a public event in the common area (i.e., at the clubhouse/pool at issue here) solely as needed in litigation, through a private investigator and former LAPD officer, by request of our attorney. This was after Stratford had requested the names of participants on previous occasions, but the swim team would not cooperate. The film will remain in the custody of the private investigator until, if necessary, our lawyer must use it in litigation.
Since the filming incident, things have really exploded. Parents have created a “Save our Seals” Facebook group that has over 100 members. Members there have posted en masse here in an obvious effort to draw up more media attention. They’re not backing down like their former competitors in North Park, who have reportedly shut down their swim team after similar concerns.
What’s really happening here?
I think we have to look at who the board is composed of and who it represents. Swim parents have alleged that a senior executive of Henry Mayo Hospital is on the board and he is pushing to kill the Seals in retaliation for the Summit’s opposition (lead by Dave Gauny, a Summit resident) to the Mayo/G&L expansion plan. I don’t see any evidence to support that conclusion.
But consider two other board members (one former, one current): Bill Reynolds is currently on the board. Reynolds has a long and interesting history with SCVTalk. You’ll remember that we outed him as the man behind (or at least affiliated with in some way) the infamous Not a Ferry Fan videos that endlessly attack City Hall, the City Manager, myself, and others as urban growth evangelists. The NAFF video library is one long string of incoherent and contradictory NIMBY sentiments, all jumbled up together, with an extreme right-wing bow tied on top.
Then there’s Cam Noltemeyer. The activist, SCOPE member, and City Council commenter was recalled from the Master Association Board last year after an acrimonious and dispute-filled six months on the board. She too has expressed NIMBY sentiments (just today, in fact, she wrote that her neighborhood is under threat) and comes from the left side of the political spectrum.
NIMBYism, it turns out, is no respecter of political ideology. It doesn’t discriminate between 5 story medical office buildings and children’s swim teams. Some people just want to be left alone. And it’s entirely possible that the Stratford board, at least part of it, is representing an aging and maturing Valencia population, a population whose kids have grown up and moved on. A population of empty-nesters that resents the Valencia 2.0 Generation’s activities in their neighborhood. This isn’t about pool resources, liability, the way the kids dive into the pool or “overly use of the common area pool.”
Some in Valencia just don’t want happy kids and parents in their backyards. In Valencia. Of all places.
Which is a remarkable development and one that makes this story much bigger than just a dispute about a swim team.
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Thank you so much for helping bring this out in the open.. there are facts in here I never knew about…
I keep asking for the Stratford board to come out publically about this. Meet the Summit HOA and Swim team boards with an independent public mediator and discuss this in front of the entire community in a protected forum, much like a presidential debate, so the real community members can hear all the facts from all parties, first hand and make their own decisions.
The Stratfords of course refuse to do this. They claim that they tried mediation. the fact is the tried with the Summit HOA, who are not responsible for the swim team, then slapped a gag order on them so they couldn’t even discuss it with the Swim team board. The Stratfords then claim the swim team won’t respond to them. Make no mistake, these are smart, manipulative people who are attempting to (mis)use their power to their own ends.
Once again, I call on them publically to stand up and have this debate in the open.
I don’t expect a response.
Anyone else see the pathetic display from the stratfords tonight at the hoa summit meeting, despite every assurance from professionals who do this for a living, repeatedly assuring them there is no liability and no risk, they simply won’t stop. Even the summit hoa president said he believes this will end up in court. No matter what the summit and swim boards do, it won’t be enough for these pathetic sad people. Just disgusting. No consideration for anyone but themselves. They are exactly the people they accuse others of being. Pathetic.
Well said… how sad for the kids
So the Stratford owners and board members (especially Bob Hudson, the CFO of our community hospital, Henry Mayo) are okay with the president of the Stratfords living in his mom’s house (of which he isn’t on title) using the HOA money to pursue shutting down the swim team, and videotaping and harassing families with young children? Shocking and pathetic. What is the Summit HOA going to do when the Stratford HOA goes bankrupt over this?
And it’s entirely possible that the Stratford board, at least part of it, is representing an aging and maturing Valencia population, a population whose kids have grown up and moved on. A population of empty-nesters that resents the Valencia 2.0 Generation’s activities in their neighborhood.
I am all the way over here in the outer planets of Canyon Country, and from where I sit I wonder if this group of folks opposed to swim teams and kids even realize how petty and draconian they sound.
Fred:
They just talk to each other in their own bubble. When you do that, you can convince yourself of the righteousness of anything.
I really don’t think there are many Stratford owners who are aware of how their Stratford board is spending money. This isn’t a case of aging empty nesters- it is just a case of the board not sharing the information. If someone went door to door telling these people what is going on, I really think there would be a lot of outraged homeowners. The Seals get a ton of support from Stratford owners. Unfortunately, the 5 Stratford owners are in charge of the entire HOA budget and no one is going to the meetings to watch over them.
its true. They operate under a veil of secrecy. Helped by HOA apathy. If you put anything up or in a mailbox, they come take it out, then go after the homeowner who placed it.
Funny, reminds me a bit of how Stalin operated….
it’s quite funny to note the Stratford’s quote contains the word “Meantality”. Quite an apt freudian slip for them in this case hahaha!
Excellent reporting Jeff. Hopefully this will mobilize to Stratford residents that have an affinity to the Seals to go to the next Stratford Board meeting and raise some hell.
In the meantime, can we all pitch in a get a style book for the secretary of the Stratford Board? “Overly” use?
or perhaps a style makeover. I mean, didja see those shorts and that haircut…. damn!
Yeah, the haircut. Is he trying to single handedly bring back the mullett?
I wanted more interactive Google maps with stick pins.
But oh well…
As a former resident of one of Canyon Country’s planned developments with a continually fractious mix of Board of Directors members, I can tell you that the RATIONAL reason for this dispute is:
(1) A certain group of association members monopolizing the use of common area facilities for a substantial period of time, to the exclusion of other members and
(2) Any additional cost to the Master HOA of hosting this swim team and its swim meets which include outsiders.
(3) As to the swim meets the fact that people who are not members of the Master Association are using the facility, which is forbidden in most planned developments’ CC&Rs.
The real world bottom line is that under California’s homeowners association case law, the “business judgment rule” applies. The courts have created a nearly insurmountable presumption that whatever a Board of Directors decides prevails, regardless of arguments by individual members that their “rights” are being violated.
I hate to continue to rag on lawyers, but Los Angeles County is filled with unscrupulous lawyers who claim to be “experts” in homeowners association law, and will take any case, even if hopeless and unmeritorious under the case law, AS LONG AS THE PLAINTIFFS ARE WILLING TO PAY THE LAWYER’S HOURLY FEES.
I do not know the facts of the case, but I am very worried that the lawyers for the Stratford HOA are stringing their client along, just to make a buck.
Coastal….in response to you
1) The swim team uses the pool 128 hours for the whole year.. that is less than 1% of the time the facilities are open for the year, they leave a lane open for lap swimmers, as well as the Jacuzzi, the baby pool the deck and the BBQ’s, they have 3 other pools besides the main pool that are open and available.. As a side note Strafford’s have 3 other pools for their exclusive use.
2) There is no additional cost, the swim team is self funded, they do not take a single penny from the HOA, in fact the swim team contract states that any damage or extra cleanup will be paid for by the swim team.
3) The HOA rules allow every homeowner to have 6 guests…thus when you have a meet every homeowner can bring up to 6 guests…
Alan, thanks for the facts.
As I indicated, courts will defer to what the majority of the Board of Directors of the Master Association decides, because they control the pool in question.
Your information simply reinforces my belief that the Stratford Board is being “taken for a ride” by some unscrupulous lawyer advising them to litigate. If you look at the State Bar Court’s decisions under the State Bar Rules, it is legally inappropriate for a lawyer to advise his client to conduct litigation which they are likely to lose, as a means of generating attorneys fees, unless the lawyer makes a very clear, written disclosure to the client (i.e. Stratford Board of Directors) that they are likely to lose; that they may have to pay the opposing party’s attorneys fees and costs; and that they have a fiduciary duty not to waste the corporation’s money tilting at windmills.
From a rational business decision making point of view, it looks to me like Stratford’s Board should stop wasting their members’ money.
They do not even want to tell their own members how much they have spent on attorney fees…It’s all intimidation to try to stop the swim team
Just to clarify, they told me that ‘all my questions would be answered’ at the next board meeting’ but declined to comment on all my other questions in my letter. I have been asking for a cost breakdown for several weeks now. I have a copy of the 2010 books, and they told me the amount was in there. I cant discern if it is the entire line item “legal fees” which if it is, is a considerable and worrisome number (which I will not disclose in public). or a part of that.
Either way, It seems an excessive use of my funds after 4 months.
Did you look under ‘pest control”. knowing these people, that’s probably how they define it.
Rob- I just got back from the Summit HOA meeting the HOA board shares those facts easily. They are so open. Homeowners can get the budget, monthly expenditures, every contract, etc. on their website. The President of the master HOA said they have spend about $7500 on Cam’s legal issues and $8300 total on everything else- including swim team, delinquent accounts, & whatever else they need an attorney for. So far, the single most expensive legal cost has been Cam. You have a right to go to your HOA office to look in the books. They have to provide you this information within 10 days of you requesting it.
They don’t even want me to do that, I asked twice to come down, they told me ‘ no need’. We’ll send you the info, and they did. Generic month by month p&ls, with no detail. When I sak for specifics, they say ” it’s all in there”.
A bit of a contrast. Isn’t it.
Hmmm, wonder how many $$’s have been spent by the Summit HOA?
Homey, it’s two posts above your post, by Holly. $7,500 in legal fees to deal with the Cam lawsuit, $8,300 for all other legal issues, including dealing with the Stratford/Swim issues.
Well then, that would be the Summit HOA then, not the Stratfords who the courts would defer to, if I am following your logic. I want to be sure, because as was pointed out yesterday by one of the Stratford Board members… oops, I mean ‘supporters’, we swim team supporters are all mentally deficient, bad parents.
I would urge litigation against them, however, as a Stratford resident, I would end up paying to fightmyself in court. Which would upset and confuse me a lot.
The court would defer to the business judgment of the HOA which controls the pool at issue. So based on what I have read here, there’s a very high likelihood that whatever the Summit HOA Board of Directors has decided would be upheld, whether the Stratford HOA Board of Directors like it or not.
Once again, litigating this issue is a complete waste of HOA assessment money on the part of the Stratford HOA board members.
Just amazes me what the Strafford board is thinking… that video is very creepy…..
We are talking about a kids swim team… Strafford Board Stop acting like bullies and trying to indimidate people… this is not the Mafia, sorry I am insulting the Mafia…
I think that it’s pathetic that these people don’t want our kids engaging in a constructive healthy sport. Would they rather we just let them roam free and get into trouble over the summer. Apparently community means nothing to them!
FYI in the video .. the man in the passenger seat is the President of the Strafford Board Kevin Jagielo, I am assuming the driver is the PI
From the video I think he “overly used” some Big Macs!
Our own President. conduct unbecoming of a man in his position I believe.
Interestingly He is also NOT named on the title of his home in the Stratfords. His mother is (who lives in another part of the Summit). My understanding is that only a homeowner who is on title may be part of the board.
I guess this is another CCR/ Bylaw conveniently overlooked by the clique in power there. A lot of that around lately.
However, if he is NOT entitled to be President of the board, and the other board members know about this, isn’t this ground for his immediate dismissal and seriously calls into question, the other board members judgement and impartiality.
I don’t know what’s worse. If thats true: The abuse of power – a president of a HOA who isn’t even entitled to be in that position legally, or that a single middle aged man, living in a house owned by his mom, was videotaping kids at a swim-meet.
Did anyone call the police? – is he holding the tapes at his home?
There is something seriously fractured in your community guys if this is really happening.
My husband called the police but he told the police later that night that he was holding the tapes for a pending civil lawsuit and that he had to prove we were registering kids. I could have told him that. He didn’t need to be there for 2 1/2 hours to do that.
it’s true and very disturbing
Oh, so his Mommy bought him his house eh? A certain profile is starting to develop.
I know it might be sort of funny to joke about this, but if it’s true (the ownership thing), he shouldn’t be on the Stratford board, nor is he a member of the Summit HOA, and therefore can’t attend any meetings. Personally, I don’t think it’s true. Wouldn’t that be the number one thing that the management company would check before allowing his name on the ballot? It also doesn’t really pertain to the main issue here, which is the swim team. If there’s a legitimate question as to whether he is a Summit HOA member, then that needs to be investigated. But, whether he’s a member or not, the other Stratford board members will keep up the fight, I’m assuming.
Joking aside. I have heard it from several sources. Jagielo brought in the new mgmt agency, Ross Morgan, so I am sure they are grateful for that. Perhaps even willing to turn a blind eye to his status, this action only really stated when he took over, so it does relate to the swim team.
Interesting Ross Morgan were also part of the North Park shut down too. Just smells fishier and fishier doesn’t it. The issue it with such a closed group of people, all looking after each other and an apathetic hoa group, how do you get action in removing them. We’d need 12 Stratford signatures to force a recall. But only two or three are interested in showing any background. Any ideas on how we can open this can of worms for public inspection?
The deed is a public record.
That’s unreal! How could a competent management company allow someone on the election ballot who doesn’t even qualify to be on it? Sounds like someone’s got some “splainin’” to do! And, did anyone on the Stratford board know about it? And if so, when did they know? I guess there’s the possibility that the Stratford election rules aren’t the same as the Summit’s? Maybe they allow residents to be elected as well as owners? Maybe his mom is filing a fast quit claim deed today?! At least under Summit HOA rules, he is no longer allowed to attend Summit meetings, unless invited by the Summit board (or until be becomes a homeowner). Is he allowed to use the Summit amenities? I guess he’d be treated like a tenant of a rental property, and I’m guessing there’s a way for them to be allowed to use the amenities. And, Dodgerfan, I didn’t realize that Kevin is the driving force behind all these actions, so yes, it definitely is closely related to our fight here.
The rules are the same. I checked the ccr/bylaws. You name must be on the lease to be on the board.
As an FYI – I have just written to the management company asking them to investigate and respond with facts about Mr. Jagielo, by return.
If this is true, it not only calls into question this issue, but everything Mr. Jagielo has instigated, supported or otherwise engaged with during his time on the board.
I find it difficult to believe that the board and the Mgmt Co, would make such a significant faux pas, As stated in the CCR’s (and restated to me by them on several occasions) the”Stratford Board of Directors and management company must proceed in the best interest of all homeowners and
not the special interest of a few, as a matter of law”.
I await their reply with interest.
Once again, no response to my inquiry.
Funny that. Wonder how quickly they can scramble and add him to the title….Guess we’ll find out…
Is that his name, I used to just call him “Sony Bono”. If anyone sees him around let him know the 60′s called they want their hair cut back!!!
As a previous swimmer on the Summit Seals, I can tell you first hand how this amazing summer program shaped my life in multiple different ways. Without this summer league I wouldn’t have been able to gain enough training in order to participate in my high school swim team. I am currently graduating as a Varsity swimmer at Hart. The swim program wasn’t simply a recreational sport where kids are tought how to swim and race. It was a close net family of friends and swimmers that learn about team spirit, motivation, making friendships,and sportsmanship. As of summer of 2008 I graduated from the Summit Seals program and was no longer able to swim due to my age. I have come back every season to help out the coaches and to cheer on my friends. I have made the end of year video for the past three years now, and it is amazing to see how much this program changes lives. Although I am a young adult, I still know what is right and wrong for our community. By taking away this program, many children in our area will not have the chance to have this swim team change their lives like it did to mine.
SOS
Save Our Seals!
Nicely said Kyle! I wish the Strafford Board members would take a minute to read and think about your comments.
Here here. Well said young man.
Come on. Practically every Valencia neighborhood has a community swim team, it is one of the best uses of the pools around. Old Orchard has one, even the northside’s Northbridge has two. My kids are involved and pay their fair share. We pay for the team and the team pays for their use of the pool. This has been going on for years and no one has complained.
This is just a power play be a group of homeowners that think they are more important than kids….enough said.
Well they are. they are all big, rich important men and women. It’s only right that what they want, they get.
but perhaps not this time. I’m on the phone with KTLA as I type this. They are interested in the whole vidoetaping episode.
I hope lots of HOA residents (on both sides) turn out to the next Stratford HOA meeting.
16th June, Summit Clubhouse, 7.30 pm.
(hmm wonder if they are paying for the clubhouse, seems they are using it ‘overly’).
How very sad that a few people want to ruin a program that has had such a positive impact on so many. We have lived in this neighborhood for 12 years, and I have seen only wonderful results come from this program. Neighbors getting to know each other, children of all ages participating in physical activity, but most important, for some children who have working parents, it has given them something to do. I have seen teenagers every year walking up to the pool to be there at 3:00 to help the younger children. Those kids are there with coaches, parents and other swimmers to look up to, and they are helping the younger kids – isn’t that better than either sitting at home alone, or worse yet, be out causing trouble. I dare you to find anyone that has ever participated in the program to find anything wrong with it, in fact parents with kids that have grown up, graduated college & gotten married will tell you what a positive influence the Seals had on their life. Seals has a huge insurance policy, uses the pool, which as homeowners we have every right to do, and is extremely well run and supervised – what could they possibly have against the Seals??How very, very sad……
Cam is definitely a whack job. Come on Stratford Homeowners, not all of you support this…. Let your voice be heard.
As was announced at the HOA meeting tonight, you won’t have Bill to kick around anymore. Bill Reynolds resigned this afternoon for “personal reasons”. He did not show face at tonight’s board meeting.
He is busy making his video…
Good. I noticed jagielo didn’t show his face either. Prhaps he and Rick and Cam will take the hint and resign next? Do something good for the whole community instead.
Do let the sounds of boos put you off as you walk out the door ladies and gentlemen.
Cam was recalled and removed from office last June with a 66% yes vote to remove…..people just had enough of her. She later filled a lawsuit stating that the recall was illegal, that cost the association $ 7500 to defend…. she lost of course because she had no case, do these people have no shame
Come on Strafford homeowners time to take back you association, where are the picthforks and torches
Actually, Bill Reynolds “resigned in protest”. Jeff Wilson, if you were a true journalist, which clearly you are not, you would have sought the other side of the story instead of bloviating propoganda. Much of what you have written here is far off the mark.
Let me know, if you would like to meet for coffee or a beer sometime.
Regards…
Bill- are you really the one behind the NotAFerryFan emails I get? I’ve always wondered who that was. I’d like to know the truth about that.
I guess Jeff made up that video,or the comment in the minutes that indicate the goal is to eliminate the swim team…
Bill:
I have read and examined the documentary assertions of the Seal naysayers and have concluded that even if 100% of what they say is absolutely true they are still 100% in the wrong.
in protest at what Bill?
a) How unfairly the Stratford board are treating the community, families and other HOA members as well as the swim team? – in which case you are my hero?
or b) that a group of passionate, committed parents will defend their child’s right to be part of a community intitiative, against a miserable band of bigots and self-focused individuals, who are now worried that their ‘antics’ are finally being dragged out into public scrutiny.
in which case you are Darth Vader.
Which is it Bill. C’mon, dont be shy – make a statement, you usually do.
still waiting Bill.
Mr. Bill Reynolds, a number of people have heard you say in the past that if your grand kids could swim you would be for the swim team??????? Isn’t that Funny!!
Bill.. I guess you will have plenty of time now to make your new videos ” How to make everyones life miserable” and “How to take the fun out of Valencia” and your big one ” Get off my lawn kids”…
now can you ask your buddies over at Stratford to resign in protest too…
LOL. yes, A beautifully kept pool no-one ever uses and two spas. One facility for each street.
…and none of you general summit rabble can use it.
But that’s not enough! we want to be sitting by our pool, sipping mimosas and laughing at your kids as they stand on the other side of our gate, crying because we ruined their summers.
Muahahahaha!
anyone got any puppies we can drown too?
“Resigned in Protest”? Thanks honey, the first positive move you made since you got on the HOA board.
But don’t stop there. I’d suggest you move out of the Summit “in protest”.
I agree, swing by and pick up Cam on your way out!!!!
I’m not gettin’ all this hand wringing. If everything is as Alan purports it to be, what is everyone worried about? It’s not like the Stratfords have enough power to eliminate the seals, right?
Bill… aka: vshomey, they can tie them up in litigation for months and ruin the season for those kids. This is a 6 week summer kids swim program, The threats, intimidation, videotaping of kids needs to stop and an apology too…
To and Stratford board members out the. know this:
This is not North Park.
We will not roll over and let you bully, harass, and intimidate us into silence.
We will do our utmost to expose your falsehoods, lies campaign of misinformation.
We will force you to come out of hiding and discuss this in the open, in front of all Parties.
We will not let you further fracture our already damaged community.
We will not let you murder a wonderful positive initative for our children.
we will not let you infringe on our rights as homeowners to use our facilities, to meet your selfish aims.
We will not go quietly into the night, we will not back off. and we will not ever, ever stop.
I hope you are ready for all the lights and cameras on the 16th. Time for your close ups.
Come out in public or back off.
Right on man…. there is 21 years of history and hundreds of families and swimmers that will never give up the fight… the Summit community and the Seals are one..we even have a bronze statue of a seal that was dedicated to a seal swimmer that passed away..
ATTICA! ATTICA!!! ATTICA!!!!
Well said dodgersfan… that gave me goosebumps!
Heather Sexton was a very special person who taught me how to swim when I was 8. To this day I can remember her and her sister Amy smiling and laughing as they taught swim practice in the Summit pool. I was a Summit Seal for 9 years and went on to swim for Hart High school when I was too old to compete as a Seal.
It’s disgraceful that a developement with access to FIVE pools is complaining about the swim team’s limited access and threatening to shut down an important community building program for children!
My daughter is 13 months old and I hope in the future to see her join the Seals and meet people who can change her life the way Heather and Amy changed mine.
Thank you, Bethany! We can’t wait to see your daughter at the pool! Be sure to introduce yourself sometime!
I’ll probably get blasted for this but I’ll say it anyway…
It was obvious Bill wasn’t a fan of the swim team; its benefits; or what it stood for. I always felt we were at an impasse when it came to discussing anything associated with the swim team. But unlike Cam Noltemeyer, he was at least decent enough to allow you talk through the issues – privately and publically.
Other than our differences related to the swim team, he appeared to be an effective board member for the Summit. After 2-3 years of responsible fiscal planning from the current and previous board of directors, Bill did step up this past year and became a pretty active force and supporter behind the Summit’s much-needed facility restoration projects. From what I can tell, he was the primary focal point with the many different contractors involved with the bidding and execution of the work. That had to be time consuming. I wonder how he had any energy to get embroiled in the swim team and Stratford HOA affairs. I wonder if all of this just wore him out.
I like Bill- I know his son-in-law and always wondered how Bill got so wrapped up in Cam’s mess. He did to a ton for the facilities here. I just don’t understand, with him being a grandpa of kids very involved with sports, how he can be so anti-swim team? We have done everything we can to make him and the Stratford guys comfortable with what we are doing. It just doesn’t add up.
You haven’t seen his YouTube videos? There you will find the calculus you seek.
No- I haven’t seen his videos- other than the anti-Seal video he spread through the neighborhood last year. I never clicked on the NotaFerryFan emails he sent to me.
Hello Holly. Thanks for the good words – I do consider you a good hearted person. I am not anti swim team (I have grandkids in sports and it’s my greatest joy), however, as I stated Jan 2009 when the swim team issue was on our agenda (my first board meeting), I thought the CC&R’s/pool use rules and swim team contact were conflicted. I asked my board members to take a little more time time to sort things out and I was immediately crucified by the Zada crowd. My issues stood with the governing documents; Cam’s issues focused on liabilty/safety. Both of us were demonized because we had questions. Holly, our board recently signed an agreement with the Stratfords that no swim team activity would occur while resolution was sought with the Strats; soon afterwards, in my absence, the board approved a new swim team contract. This exacerbated the problem. Meanwhile, Zada was sending Strat board members irritating messages and a lawyer was sending terse letters. All of this did not endear a positive working relationship between the boards. I have to tell you (in my opinion), having Zada behave as swim team pointman has reeked havoc with accomplishing harmony in our community. I have no idea how this will resolve itself, but I can tell you that when there are entitlements issued there will always be others who who dissent. The actions of my board members invoke favoritism and that is what I cannot tolerate which is why I resigned. I will e-mail you my letter of resignation as info only; not sure you have seen it. Best regards.
Again, Mr Reynolds, Many people in the past have heard you say that if your Grand kids could swim on the team you wouldn’t have an issue with the Swim Team??????
I heard the Swim team board was trying to get that done but had no time to get it on line beacause of this Silly issue!!!!!
Again, to clarify- Zada is not at all on our board, nor has he been appointed as a swim team pointman. The swim team makes people very passionate because it has done amazing things for children and families.
Let me ask you this, Bill… is this whole battle fueled by your hatred for Alan? Because that was sure my impression when I met with you when you first went on the board. You couldn’t stop telling me how horrible it was that swim team families were (Alan included) were on the board when the earthquake damaged our pool and a new competetive waveless pool was built as a replacement. If that is the case, please leave the Seals out of it. 90% of the families were not there, nor did we have children at that time. Now, we just want to let our children swim and have the opportunities that we thought they’d have when we bought our home in the Summit.
I fear that Bill may have some undiagnosed pathology. Word on the street is that his resignation email was somewhere between the Federalist papers and the Unabomber Manifesto!
Bob like I have told you before, you are a good man; thanks for the kudos. I did pour myself into renovating our recreational centers and for that I am proud to have served our community. I left the board a few months early as I could not tolerate what I considered favoritism by the board. It will be interesting to see how all of this pans out. I’m fairly certain that blog bloviating will not resolve the issue.
Bill, does the Stratford HOA pay to use the clubhouse for its monthly meetings and many unscheduled, unauthorized spontaneous “special board meetings”? Does the Stratford HOA pay to have maintenance come in after the meetings to put away chairs, tables, and clean up after them? The Stratford HOA uses the clubhouse for its “special interest” group all the time. Do they have a $5 million policy? What if one of them gets trips on a chair- are we protected?
The Summit Seals use the clubhouse for 4-5 times per season and most of the time they are barely using it- just opening up the kitchen to the outside so they can serve food. The Seals never ever leave the place needing any additional maintenance work- it is in better condition than they left it. How is this not favoritism? Oh yeah- they are all your peeps so that makes it all okay.
I won’t blast you Bob but that’s just not true. I followed the board when Bill and Cam got on. He was an obstacle and an obstructionist on pretty much every project. His analysis was legendarily inept. He did love to go out to job sites and watch people doing the work and point out mistakes they were making and take credit for it. While he wasn’t as wild-eyed as Cam don’t doubt that he was equally crazed. Ask anyone who’s served on the board with him.
Very true Meg..
Perhaps so MegR. I’ll admit Bill didn’t seem to fully embrace any of the various recommendations presented from the pool deck repair committee. He and I locked horns at one of the HOA meetings. But it was Cam that was making most of the noises and tossing smoke screens on every project (at least in the open forum). Then it looked like there was much better cooperation amongst the board – including Bill – after Cam was recalled. There was singing in the streets; cats and dogs living together; no more emails from Alan. That is, until the Stratford board started getting nasty…
Holly Cam is a grandma. Apparently having grandkids doesn’t innoculate you from hating other peoples’ kids.
Bob when Bill lost his partner and it became 4-1 instead of 3-2 he was much more docile. Not any smarter or more capable, but without anyone to second his motions he was less capable of tieing everything up.
I feel like I’m feeding the trolls but I’m going to go ahead and bite on this.
First several questions for those in the know:
Where do the Summit Seals dues go? They don’t pay for facilities, and the coaches are compensated but not enough to account for all the dues. So where does it go? Seeing as how this is supposed to be a community driven project, why don’t those profits go back into the HOA general fund to help ofset the maintainence costs and profit the community as a whole.
Secondly, I’d like to state that as I write this I am sitting at the Summit main pool doing my job as a facility monitor. Bill Reynolds was my boss and ran things very effectively, as far as I can tell. His predecessor, Alan Zada, however found it fitting to hire his son for the same position I’m working now but pay him more than his peers. How is this acceptable and why is it that this kind of behavior is ignored?
I will be at the pool on the weekends if anyone would like to discuss this further. In closing, I’d like to say that as a former member ofthe swim team the program is excellent and should stay. However, I do think that it should be run in a transparent manner and it should benefit the community as a whole and not an elite class of special interest. Alan Zada, if you really do believe in the swim team and want to contribute to the good of the community, you should give complete control of it and it’s interests to the Summit Homeowners.
Looking forward to some answers. Sorry in advance for the typos, the iPhone’s spellcheck is as clumsy as my spelling.
Will,
As a former treasurer of the Seals, I can tell you that our registration fees don’t come anywhere close to covering our expenses. Payroll expenses are more than what we bring in from registration fees, and then we also have to pay for workers compensation coverage and liability insurance (which is significantly higher this year due to the Stratford’s request that we carry 2.5 times the coverage we’ve carried in the past). So, you can see that we now have to conduct various fundraising activities throughout the season in order to cover our expenses. As a not-for-profit, stand-alone corporation, the Seals goal is to break even every year, so we should have very little profit, if any.
No, none of the registration fees pay for the facilities. However, the approx. 60-80 families that are involved in the Seals every year pay a combined $45,000 – $60,000 per year in association fees. The Seals use the pool for approx 128 hours per six-week season. That’s only around 1% of the time that the main pool is open. One can’t really say with a straight face that we are over-using the pool.
As far as the maintenance costs are concerned, I encourage you to go look at the pool expense records sometime. A recent analysis found that the most expensive month for pool maintenance is August, which is not a month that the Seals are active, as you know.
And yes, the Seals are a community activity. It has benefited hundreds and hundreds of kids over the past 21 year, including yourself. It has, by far, the most participation of any Summit community event. It is open to anyone in the community who has kids aged 4-17. It’s much, much bigger than the Easter Egg Hunt or the Halloween event, which are, unfortunately, the only other community events in the Summit. There is no elitism going on here. We welcome all Summit kids that want to join (and can swim the length of the pool), as my son was welcomed five years ago, and my daughter will be welcomed three years from now.
And, it is very transparent, just like the Summit HOA. We provide a profit and loss statement to any of our members who would like one. Our registration is out in the open, in the parking lot, our practices are out in the open, for anyone to watch, as are our meets. We have nothing to hide, and no secret agenda.
As to your issue about your pay, I suggest you take that up with the supervisor who will replace Bill. As a small business owner myself, when I discuss raises with my employees, if I feel their work ethic and conduct merit a raise in pay, I give it to them. If I don’t, then they don’t get a raise, and they’re welcome to leave and find employment elsewhere. And not everyone gets paid the same either. You’ll find that happens very, very often, but usually not with any sinister connotations behind it. Some of my employees are more valuable to me than others, due to their particular skill sets, and I will pay them more to keep them around than I do others. That’s just the way it works. If you think you’re worth more than you’re making now, make your case to the appropriate person.
Will- Alan Zada isn’t a part of the swim team anymore so I think it would be best if I answererd your questions.
The Summit Seals does not make a profit at all- we are a not for profit corporation with a tremendous overhead- especially now that we have to pay over $2000 per year in insurance. With 81 swimmers at approximately $85 per head, 3 coaches working full time at a good rate since they are required to be certified lifeguards with WSI training, and this enormous insurance bill, I’m sure you can do the math to realize that there isn’t a lot left over. We are struggling to make ends meet.
The pool monitor program is completely separate from the swim team. I hope that you can make that distinction and realize that the current swim team board is doing everything we can to make the Bill, Cam, Stratford group happy. I know you probably hear a lot from one side, but it may be a good idea to take the personal issues out of this and focus on what is best for the community. Fighting over a swim team? I think not.
In response to both Mike and Holly:
I’m glad that you are open to a discussion. Is there a place on the web where we can take a look at the finances of the swim team? I have never heard of it referred to as a non-profit and I don’t see any documentation that suggests that it is a 502.11c organization or anything like it. If you are willing to be transparent than please show what the financial status of the team looks like so as a community we can better support and understand your cause.
Also, as you may recognize from my last name, my father was the one who recommended the high level insurance premium that you carry. I feel like it disingenuous to think of this as a bad thing. Insurance is a good thing for all parties involved and the 1 million dollar limit was just not enough considering the activities present. I applaud your decision to carry more insurance and would even go so far as to recommend carrying more.
As for this 1% stat: I can totally understand the math behind this figure. However, I think that we can all agree that not all hours of the day are equal. In that, I mean that the pool traffic during the weekdays from 9 to 5 is going to be severely reduced simply due to the majority of homeowners being at work. What you should be talking about is how many peak hours the swim team uses per summer. I think that is were you will be better able to understand the plight of the homeowners. 3pm to 7pm monopolized a majority of the good swim time after a long hard work day. Albeit, I realize those hours have changed to 2pm to 6pm, however I think everyone involved should be dissuaded from using this 1% figure simply because it is misleading.
Mike, I believe that you misunderstand me in reference to my comments on Mr. Zada’s choice of salary. I was simply making public a blatant display of nepotism on Mr. Zada’s part and bring up the question of his overall character. I also chose to do so in defense of Mr. Bill Reynolds who, not only has brought together a good staff, but has also reduced the budget of the pool monitors in addition to fixing many of the problematic facility issues around the Summit. Plus, lets face it, being a Facility Monitor is not rocket science. We could really save some money by hiring local kids to do it and pay them in gummy worms, so to say that Mr. Zada’s son was compensated due to some additional skill set is a bit of a lame duck argument. Mr. Zada was wrong to do what he did, and I don’t think I can be convinced otherwise on that issue.
Holly, I appreciate your input and support of your community. However, I do contest some of your facts. I was working the night of registration and not only heard the fee’s mentioned but was told that to be on the swim team for the season the total cost would be upwards of 180 dollars per child (with benefits for multi-child families). Did I mishear and was I misinformed?
Also, you are right. I do hear a lot of one side. I am however open to debate and see that swim team is making changes. The rub for me is the coercion that occurs from the swim team ranks. I think that if your case was so cut and dried that there was no question as to the ethical nature that the swim team operated under, there wouldn’t be a need to vilify your opponents. Simply stating your case and letting logic and reason speak for you should be enough. However the actions that have been taken on the part of the swim team have given the impression that there is something to hide, even if that ends up not being the case.
Will- all of our registration forms, including the cost break-down, is on our website http://www.summitsealsswim.com. The registration fee for the first child is $85. A parent may need a new bathing suit for the child- that would be an extra $40. You can check with Yvette at SwimWorks to confirm that we do not mark up her prices or get a kick-back on swimming suits. $30 per family goes to the pancake breakfast which most of us use as a community outreach by giving the tickets to neighbors. Families are welcome to sell the tickets to re-coup their costs. And yes, this is a fundraiser that does have some costs and some profit involved. If a parent wants to pay for their Pasta by the Pool tickets (which we generally break even or are in the red on), they can but again… no profit there. And yes, I’d be happy to meet with you to show you our books. I wouldn’t be surprised if all of our docs are posted on the Summit HOA website as they are very sharing with their information.
Please understand that the other 4 board members and I are working tirelessly to look at every activity to make sure that everything is covered by our insurance. We have cancelled activities on our own initiative because there were gray areas.
I do resent you implying that we are doing something shady or manipulative as we have been nothing but accomodating, cooperative, open, and cautious in how we are handling our swim team.
Quite frankly Will, a lot of the things you’re asking for are really the business between the swim team and its members. You can see the registration forms from the website and get an idea what it costs.
So extra insurance is a good thing eh? Do you mind me asking you what your limits are on your car insurance? My guess it’s no where close to what the swim team has, and odds are that killing machine you refer to as your transportation have a greater chance of disabling someone than those engaging in swim team activities.
I appreciate your comments about having an open debate. This is something a lot of the swim team members have been asking. There is much misinformation being thrown around these days.
Will, just as an FYI, a California non-profit is a 501.c.3. never heard of 502.11c –
I’ve also never heard of the 502.11c. The Seals are actually a 501.c.4 or c.6, which are both still non-profit/tax exempt organizations (the state and the feds refer to them in different ways). I think the application was made to be a c.4, but then the State suggested it be a c.6. I just wanted to make sure Will/Will’s dad/Will’s family attorney had all the facts on this so that he/they wouldn’t lose any more sleep.
We actually have 501(c)(7) status; social and recreation club defined; public use of club facilities
Will please get your facts straight.. I a not a member of the swim team, my kids are not on swim team, nor do they coach on swim tema…but I am a supporter of this great program…,not sure where you get your facts..
Also for your information, I did not hire my son as pool monitor. he was hired by the previous pool monitor supervisor, when he did not want to continue as supervisor, the board asked me to continue as pool monitor supervisor.. also the board sets and appoves wages, not the supervisor.
Is this the same pool monitor who watches video games and movies all day in the office? Who only comes out to ask for ID from families he knows are swim team families? Who ID’s us and then asks for ID 10 minutes later when we run to the car for a towel? Who says he is Bill Reynolds personal friend? Who doesn’t ID the family from Stevenson Ranch who always uses their dad’s pool key without him present? Hmmm…. maybe we need to get pool monitors in there who aren’t so friendly with their bosses. Or do we really need them at all?
I’m sorry you feel the way you do. If you have a problem with the new ID regulations then you should take them up with the board of directors. They can easily get rid of us. Also, if you know of a family that is breaking or circumventing the rules, isn’t it the responsibility of the whole community to ensure the regulations are adhered to. If you have a problem with the way the facility monitors do their work than take it up with the board. Take my name with you. It’s Will Harwood and I’m not ashamed in the slightest by my performance.
Quite a smart move, for the board to use you to air their grievances. (but then, I think we’ve all been shocked at how devious and manipulative they really are) I think it’s been pretty open knowledge that the Swim team is a non-profit, and as for your comments on insurance, as a parent who has to bear the cost of the increased (and unwarranted) extra costs, because of the ‘fear campaign’ and general level of gross misinformation that Stratford board has waged against the team, well, we’ve all agreed to pay it because we want the positive benefits to continue. As for vilifying the Stratford board, well, it seems to me any group that subverts it’s purpose and begins to use it’s power and position to pursue personal vendettas, and yet refuses to make public it’s real arguments, and instead chooses to wage it’s hate campaign via misinformation, lies and harassment, deserve any tactics that expose these people and their hypocritical abuse of power is a good thing. I wonder, have you asked them the same questions about why they refuse to answer questions to their own homeowners and make their own information public? perhaps you need to become a bit better informed before jumping in. Say hi to your Dad for us.
Or did he just craft this whole email for you? I find it difficult to believe any young person would be so intimately acquainted with this issue without priming.
“I think that if your case was so cut and dried that there was no question as to the ethical nature that the swim team operated under, there wouldn’t be a need to vilify your opponents. Simply stating your case and letting logic and reason speak for you should be enough. ”
Really? Sounds a lot like the Stratford board talking there young man. My suggestion would be that the Stratfords follow Dodgersfan’s suggestion and participate in a open moderated debate, then no-one could hide, and all the facts can be discussed in public. It’s interesting to me how they throw these arguments out about ‘being honest and truthful” and yet, still prefer to operate in hiding and refuse to engage in any real honest debate.
Were they to have the guts (or at least the confidence in their own arguments) to come and talk to the community in public, then I (and many others who are reading and participating in this debate) would have some respect for them.
As it is now, I still see a group of NIMBY-driven individuals, trying to intimidate a community with a web of lies and deceit about the real reason for their campaign.
Dodgersfan,
I somewhat resent that you think of me as an avatar for some group. I, believe it or not, am completely independent. You blast me for asking questions and raising points that I think haven’t been answered so that I can become better informed. In saying that, I will say that I haven’t been referencing anything about the Stratford group. I know nothing of their plight with swim team or what their agenda is. I think that a representative from their camp would be better served to answer that question.
As a person trying to work towards a common solution, I will say this: I am against the thought of the elimination of the swim team. I feel as though it is a great program that not only encourages close ties between the kids but encourages water safety. As for the swim team being a well known non-profit, I wasn’t in the know. If they are I’d love to see the books and see the expense sheets to see how we can better enable the swim team to be a non loss generating entity.
I’d like to say that the real problem here is that the Summit HOA has taken the stance that there are liabilities that are being taken that only benefit the swim team that are burdening the community as a whole. Something needs to be done about this inequitable equation. My father has suggested that swim team parents and participants from other communities be required to sign indemnification hold harmless agreements so that there would be no risk to the homeowners. God forbid something happens to a swim team member that leads to severe lifelong injuries, the cases are known to bring 5 to 50 million dollars settlements. With the 15 million dollar Summit HOA insurance policy and the 5 million swim team policy, should the worst case happen, every Summit homeowner would be required to make up the 30 million dollar difference. That is not acceptable for the community. I find no reason for the swim team not to continue its functions, they just need to be done without Summit HOA introducing unneeded liabilities.
I think some transparency needs to happen on all sides of the debate. I’m not hear to tell you that you are uninformed, I’m here to give you the other perspective. Frankly I don’t see why this needs to be the giant issue it has turned into. The Summit HOA needs to become accountable for the needs of all of its homeowners, not a select few.
So, Dodgerfan, how about it. Would you sign an indemnification hold harmless agreement indemnifying all of the Summit homeowners? If so, why not press the Summit HOA to make this happen.
Per civil code, if an HOA carries at least a $3 million policy, all homeowners are indeminfied automatically. Every swimmer in the entire league is required to sign a waiver form also. This is a direct result of the Summit’s push to make sure their HOA is covered. It is a pain for the other HOA’s who don’t see the need, but they do it for us anyway.
I’m so shocked to read your allegations that we are not being transparent. NOT ONE person, other than your post yesterday, has EVER asked to see our books in all the time I’ve been involved with running the swim team. It is completely unfair to accuse us of this when you have never asked the current board. In terms of being open, we left all of our registration materials sitting right next to you. You were welcome to read through them, take one, make copies- whatever. And yes, you are right to say that it could cost $150 to register a child. But you are not right in assuming all $150 of that is pure profit going directly to the swim team. I’m sure we’ll be seeing a lot of each other this summer- you are welcome to look through my files any time.
Yes Will, you did “mishear”, and you are “misinformed”. As with the Summit HOA, if you are a member, you can look at our documents, which is more than what the Stratford HOA board is allowing these days. And don’t act so stupid as to why ours aren’t posted on the web. The Summit HOA has a management company working for it that does the web posting for them. The Seals is strictly a volunteer organization (other than the coaches) and we don’t have the time or resources or desire to do that. As a non-member of the Summit HOA, Stratford HOA and Summit Seals, you aren’t entitled to see any of those entities information. Your dad may be. Additionally, how the Seals’ corporation is organized is immaterial to this whole issue. You and your dad can pull whatever info you want on the structure from the California Secretary of State.
As far as insurance levels are concerned, $1mm was enough coverage for many years…then we bumped it up to $2mm last year. Did you and your dad just move here recently? Why the high level of concern about insurance levels now? Where was the concern 2, 3, 4, 8 years ago? Also, I’m sure you’re familiar with Canyons Swim Club. Do you realize they carry only $2mm of liability insurance, yet have many, many more swimmers than the Seals, who are exposed to many, many more hours of swimming than are the Seals swimmers? The liability issue that you and your dad (and friends) hide behind is quite lame, and you need to move off of that, as it’s run it’s course.
The 1% figure is a solid figure, and not remotely misleading. You should inform your dad how empty that main pool is most of the time. Inform him that people actually don’t come pouring over to that pool the second they get home from work Monday thru Fridays. Remind him that there are also three other Summit pools that are open, plus two additional pools for Stratford owners. We have lots of pools in the neighborhood, all of which are under utilized. Stop with the long-face attitude about how the poor 9-5 people come running up to the main pool, only to be turned away. Talk about misleading! So, according to your (or your dad’s) definition of “peak hours”, the Seals use the main pool (and none of the other 5 pools) one peak hour per day (from 5-6), five days per week, for six weeks. That’s 30 peak hours, total, for the whole year.
Yes, you might have heard someone pay $180 at registration. As Holly said, $85 is for registration, $30 is for 10 tickets to a pancake breakfast fundraiser that all must purchase, some might have been for swim lessons paid in advance, and some might have been for merchandise, such as swim suits, goggles, or swim caps. I’m sure you (and your dad) recall from your days with the team that the boys suits cost around $35-$40, and the girls around $60-$70. So, did I clear up that conspiracy theory for your dad…uh, I mean for you?
Again, with you guys thinking I don’t speak for myself… Mike, I appreciate you clearing up some issues for me. This is the trouble I find. You, apparently, refuse to be transparent in your operations. I can’t nor have any intention of forcing this issue, just pointing out that this could possibly be a bone of contention that your opponents would cling to. I care really, only because I am curious as to how an organization that is so strapped has operated continuously for a couple decades.
As for the liability issue, several changes have been made over the years that lead to changing liability. For example, we don’t have lifeguards anymore. As of a couple weeks ago there is now an exemption to the no diving policy that allows swim team members to dive at certain times. That liability itself lends itself to a variety of pitfalls. As for the Canyons Swim Club, I have no idea who they are and frankly they have no place in this discussion as their risk and the Summit homeowners risks are different. If you are a parent of a swim team member why not sign a indemnification hold harmless agreement so you can take the risks you want and leave the rest of the homeowners out of the picture? That more than satisfactory for me and I’d presume my father, although I don’t speak for him.
As for the 1% figure, I don’t, again, see why my dad would need to be informed seeing as I am the one making my arguments. Please don’t mistake the fact that I speak for myself. Let’s take a look at your argument. You say that the other pools are under utilized. Why is that? I’d guess that was due to the fact the main Summit pool is the only pool heated year round and the the only pool that is acceptable for lap swim. So that begs the question, is this 1% for usage of all pools in the Summit Year around for all hours that the pools are open? If that’s the case then I think your figures are right on. Quick estimate puts swim team total usage for the year at around 1 percent. If, however, you look at the peak hours during the summer when kids are out of school and parents and kids can go a heated lapping pool the figure is much worse. Quick math puts the swim team using 10 percent of that time. That’s really a who cares issue for me personally, because I don’t mind sharing.
Finally, after telling me I was misinformed and misheard you confirm in your last argument that the cost for a kid on the swim team is 150 to 180. So, I heard right.
I figured I would be attacked. I just had hoped that some of you would realize that there is a good conduit here that could be used to bring this to a resolution.
Will, I am sorry if my response seemed unduly harsh. It’s just that your comments do indicate the frustrating lack of information (and in fact misinformation) that has been pushed out.
I still maintain that we should have all three parties. The Stratford board, the Summit Board and the Swimteam board take part in a ‘town hall meeting’. A moderated, public debate, Managed by an independant arbiter so no party can be attacked or harangued – a ‘safe’ environment, if you will. And let each party state it’s case and respond, openly and fairly. And then, let the public decide.
Until the Stratforda board engages in an open dialogue of some kind, (Heck, I’d be happy if they just met with the Swim team board at this point), they will continue to come under pressure.
They need to acknowledge that they can’t just sit behind a wall and throw rocks.
As for your comments about the Swim team and Summit HOA, I am a member of neither, but I have always found them open and responsive to questions and are transparent to anything asked of them, whereas I have found the Stratford board to be rude, dismissive and secretive. – my observation and opinion.
Maybe you are a good conduit, perhaps if you can help bring all parties to the table, we can find a compromise. Sadly, that’s a word I haven’t heard the Stratford board use in this ongoing debate.
Thanks!
Will,
Your previous post inferred that the $180 figure that you overheard was, in fact, the registration fee, and that Holly may have been lying in her response that it was $85. The fee is $85. Everything else that is paid at the time of registration either has no profit involved (swim suits and other merchandise) or very little (pancake breakfast, pasta by the pool).
Also, we don’t need to get into a business class here, but just because a corporation is organized as a not-for-profit, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s cash” strapped”. It’s one of many different ways to organize a corporation. Again, let’s not get hung up on an area that is completely irrelevant to the real issue here.
A last comment for the night. I am continually amazed and disgusted by the actions of the Stratford board against our kids and against our community.
A group of sad men and women, who pretend to care about the community, while using it as a mask to peddle their own NIMBY agenda.
We all know the comments about liability and costs are blatant misinformation, I think to see the real reason behind this hate campaign, we need look no further than the post from “summit resident” May 25th, on the original blog:
“As our community has matured, homeowners have become intolerant of the favoritism and encroachment on “homeowners rights of enjoyment” by the entitlement meantality of swim team families which represent less than 10% of the community.”
This is the real reason that the Stratford Board want to ‘eliminate’ the swim team. They perceive that the swim team was given preferential treatment in the past, and they have become aggrieved, and want their ‘pound of flesh’ in return.
This may have been the case in the past, I cannot comment. All I know are the following facts which are true now:
1) There is a new Swim Team board, with little of this history in place. As has been demonstrated in the last few weeks, they are willing to compromise in any way necessary to make the swim season happen. Extra insurance, revised practice times, reduced activities, canceling of some of the swim team events, no championships. Each one a concession to the Stratford Board.
2) What has the Stratford compromised in return? – absolutely nothing. Even though the swimteam has agreed to every measure of concern to the Stratfords, they still refuse to let the issue go and are still pursuing it’s elimination despite every concern being addressed.
3)The Statfords claimed that the Swim team refused mediation by an independent arbiter. The fact is they approached the Summit HOA regarding arbitration, and slapped a legal order on them, effectively disallowing the summit HOA from even telling the swim team the arbitration was talking place. (the Swim team are a separate company)
4) The Swim team is a separate, no profit company. It is not part of the Summit HOA. The Stratfords know this, yet repeatedly ask for proof, and push misinformation about this fact, They refuse to have any dialog with the swim team and refuse attempts to find a real compromise via arbitration.
5) on March 12, 2010. the Stratford Board circulated a letter to all of the Stratford and Summit HOA members. This letter was made up of misinformation and incorrect facts about the Swim team. At best, it was a letter that was put together so ineptly, that whoever drafted it did not check their facts. At worst, it could have been designed to deliberately alienate HOA members from the swimteam, by propagating a series of lies and mistruths about the operation. A letter which to this day, they refuse to go back and amend with the correct information.
6) The Stratford board continue to be unresponsive and secretive to their own HOA’s about the affair, refusing to answer basic questions about their campaign and the costs to the HOA members. They also seem to be refusing to answer the question about the Board’s president and his eligibility to even be part of that group. An issue which has severe and damaging ethical implications to the individual, the board as a whole, and the Management company they engaged.
7) The Videotaping of children and families attending the sign ups was conducted in a threatening and Harassing manner. Tapes of our children are being held somewhere, they refuse to say where, or make any commitments to destroy the tapes.
These are facts.
The Stratford group is clever, smart and manipulative. They are keen to demonize and discredit the Summit HOA, the SwimTeam Board, and even the parents involved as well as their own HOA members. Anyone who challenges them is ignored, and if that doesn’t work, they attempt to make them look like an angry screaming ignorant mob.
This is far beyond just the swim team now, in my opinion.
This is about a much bigger issue now. It’s about if we as a community are prepared to sit back and let five individuals ride, roughshod over their own HOA members, our Master HOA, our community spirit, and each of us as individuals.
And why? Because they are angry and feel the need to punish a group of kids and an initiative that has touched over 40% of Summit families in the last 20 years.
Ultimately people, this is what it comes down to.
Do we allow a small clique of people with no real experience in the legalities or insurance issues, who are not acting in the best interests of anyone except themselves, dictate their terms to us all?
Is that what America is about now? – That sounds over dramatic, but I believe this is relevant.
We need to stand up and show them that we are a community, both Stratfords and Summit together.
We need to stop them from pursuing their own personal agenda, – and beyond that, we need to remove these people from positions of power. We need to remove them from the board for the following reasons:
They are not representing the real views of their membership.
They are not acting in the best interests of the membership.
They are not acting in the best interests of our community.
They are acting for one thing only. Themselves.
Please, please, please. Help us. Support us, stand with us.
Do not let these people run our community. Do not let them believe they are free to do whatever they want without any accountability to their HOA members and their community.
It’s up to each of you.
They say that ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good people do nothing’ . In this case, I acknowledge that is overly extreme. They are not evil. Just selfish.
But the sentiment is the same.
If we do nothing, the Swim team will fall, and then what is next?
Ask yourself that question. If they win this battle (and make no mistake, that’s what they have made it), what will they do to impinge on your HOA rights next, because, believe me, it won’t stop with this.
Please support us. please help us. Spread the word.
it is not enough. they conrinue to mumble on about liability, however, at two HOA meetings, Real experts, who conduct insurance as an living have confirmed repeatedly that our swim team has some of the best HOA protection policies in place – in the whole of california! Yet, this board, refuse to acknowledge this expert advice. Is it out oaf arrogance that they understand insurance issues better that the experts themselves, or simply because this is the convenient excuse, the only chink in the armor they could find which would allow them enough leverage to wage their war of retribution on the swim team and the childrten involved.
I agree completely! What about the city youth programs? The registration forms for city youth sports programs say that the city doesn’t carry insurance for their programs. Are they going to go after them next? They were just recently at a city council meeting complaining about something with youth sports. This can not be set as a precedent- this affects way more people than just the Summit homeowners. Please do not let the bitter few mess up a good, healthy program for our community!
In terms of signing another document- I’m sure we’d agree to that as well if we were asked- this is the first I’ve heard of it. Is something wrong with the current release of liability form each swimmer signs? Again, no one has ever approached us with this so don’t spread the word that we are not agreeing to it! Our track record is consistent- we’ve agreed to EVERYTHING they have asked for.
Dodgersfan,
So how about that indemnity agreement?
Will, as Holly mentioned earlier, there is an indemnification form already in place…it’s been in place for maybe 3-4 years now, maybe more.
Interesting. I just checked out all the forms on the releases and that looks good to me, although I haven’t talked it over with the family attorney. I’m glad there is an indemnification in place. My one last question about this matter is this: why did the Summit HOA agree not to take any actions regarding the swim team until there was a resolution, but then proceeded to almost immediately sign a new swim contract? Is that not a breach?
Are you (or your dad) knowledgeable about what went on in the meeting between the Summit and Stratford HOA boards, first hand? If so, are you allowed to fill us in, because most/all of us have no idea what went on…we only hear third party chatter. The board of the swim team was not invited to that meeting, nor were they allowed to be briefed about it by the Summit HOA board. So, if you or your dad or your family attorney could fill us in, we would be appreciative.
I have no idea what the Stratford HOA’s gripe is. I also was not aware that those two groups met. To reiterate, I’ve been mostly convinced that homeowners are protected which is of a great deal of relief to me.
Glad you are relieved… wow I could not sleep at night
HA! ME TOO
Oh forgive me. I thought you were a swim team parent. I agree with your sentiments whole heartedly. Transparency is key.
Mr. Harwood… aren’t you the son or Marlene Harwood… and she was a big supporter of Cam… and Bill and was the voice against the recall… and now you were hired by Bill as pool monitor…. what a coincidence… hmmmmm…payback?
Yep, I’m Marlene’s son. I should say I have no idea about her politics. If a 4 hour a week job is a kickback, I must be talking to the wrong people. Frankly, I’m interested in this because in my 4 hour shifts it’s all I hear about.
and aren’t your parents friends with Bill and his wife… and he hired you for that position..and your mom sent our emails and letters in support of Cam so she does not get recalled….hmmmmmmm and now you are on here bad mouthing people… shame on you, maybe you needed to join the seals to learn repect and honor
Bad mouthing people? Like, say, alleging some sort of unethical conduct of a former board member? That’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle back. 0/10 bud.
unethical conduct..you mean like a board member having secret meetings with strafford board members trying to bring down the swim team, leaking information to Strafford HOA to undermine swim team and the Summit HOA …you mean that kind of unethical conduct..I’m just sayin…
Hmmmmmm!
very interesting, Now that would explain a lot, just saying, what if?
As a casual outside observer, there have been no fact based arguments against the Seals that have not been addressed. This Board has moved past theisr charge by going out to film this teams activities. They are actively looking to find a reason to stop the swim team and that is action is clearly one of intimidation. If the expectation of the Stratford HOA was in line with all of the other HOA’s with swim teams, then the debate would be rational. The fact is that they are demanding much more than similar neighborhoods and yet remain dissatisfied. That speaks volumes.
Damn, white people and their problems!
Bill Reynolds, from one OG to another, keep hustlin’!
See even “crackers” have problems!
Preach on brother V-town…
Preach on
It’s all whacked all up in this joint.
Hey Dodgerman, question: is it true that the Seals recently decided to eliminate diving into the shallow-end of our pool and various other activities to help resolve Stratfords concerns?
Yes, I believe that is correct.
He says bracing himself for the second half of this obvious sucker-punch…
Dodgerman, why aren’t you at Dodger Stadium? Anyhow, if this is true wouldn’t it be prudent for swim team mgrs to submit a revised contract for approval to their Summit Board members? Maybe that would relieve a bit of anxiety in the community?
Will, I am the Treasurer of the Summit Seals and have been since July of 2008. If you have any question about the financial state of the organization, come two houses down, knock on my door, and ask. If you think the Seals are rolling in the dough, you are sorely mistaken. We just had to purchase additional insurance and, as a goodwill gesture before all this BS started, we (the Seals) spent $1800 on a lane line storage reel for the main pool (for everyone’s use). It’s still in my garage as it requires assembly but no one asked us to do that, Will. We just did it because the old one was falling apart. Also, Mike is correct. Registration is $85.
Come on over and I’ll show you all the boring payroll and banking documents you want.
Crystal Larochelle
You mean “Relieve the
Simply Bitter 7, (The Stratford Board, Cam & You”)
Just to clarify- the only ones diving in this end are the very little ones who are diving in to 3 1/2 feet- not exactly shallow. They normally don’t even really dive- it is more like a feet first belly flop. Think about it… do these little kids really have the body mass to propel themselves through the water to hurt themselves? No
One of the reasons we moved to the Summmit was for the swim team. It’s very upsetting that it has become laughable in our community. This was supposed to be a comunal neighborhood and now its the butt of jokes! We believe that the swim team actually adds value to our house and if it goes away so will that value.
There were several items that were changed in an attempt to satisfy those who cannot be satisfied. (this comes from an earlier e-mail from Holly to our swim team)
To summarize, here are changes we have made in an attempt to improve the relationship and business structure between our team and the neighborhood HOAs:
1) Moved practice times up an hour so working homeowners may enjoy the pool after work – we will now end our practices at 6pm and will clear lanes as early as possible for neighborhood swimmers
2) Increased our insurance coverage to $5 million, naming the Stratford HOA and the Summit HOA each as additionally insured. This has significantly increased our insurance costs forcing us to both raise registration fees and reduce the number of coaches to past levels.
3) Eliminated the teen sleepover, beach trip, and water polo matches from the team calendar as they could potentially increase the liability and therefore insurance required by the HOA and team.
4) Reduced our use of the clubhouse substantially
5) Opened up Dive-In Movie nights and other events to the entire community
6) Agreed to no longer host championship meets at the Summit facility
7) Will not be able to expand our team to encompass lessons and activities to relatives, grandchildren and non-swim team members in the neighborhood as was our hope/plan
This was the first year that my son was going to be able to go to the teen sleepover. It is unfortunate that this thing that he’s looked forward to for so long is now gone.
Suzanne, why not submit a revised contract? And if your liability issue is resolved, what is the problem? It’s hard to believe that people want the swim team to leave just for the sake of it. Unless of course name calling, hassling certain employers, call the sheriff, etc., has caused folks to dig their heels in?
Honestly, I have no idea. My son just wants to go to a stinking sleepover….. and be on the swim team for the 6th year.
Bill, can you tell me what’s with your “baiting” attitude on the swim team contract issue? You keep fishing for some kind of “gotcha” response by someone on this legally-irrelevant forum. Everyone who’s a member of the Summit HOA can view the contract, as I just did. The new hours of operation are in the existing contract, as is the $5mm liability amount. The new diving policy is a new HOA policy, not a swim team policy. I’m sure simple amendments might be made. You know how it works, having been on the board…quit with the “why not…” stuff already.
No need to revise the contract unless we are asking for more. We’ve given up events, not requested more use of the pool or clubhouse. The diving policy has changed but we have a clause in our contract that current pool rules apply. So, I don’t think that is something we need to pursue at this point.
We should stop giving up things, request everything back and get into arbitration. I believe a fair and impartial third party would find this whole thing rediculous.
Guidestar.com provides copies of all non profit tax returns. Attached you will find the link to review the annual tax returns for the swim team.
http://www2.guidestar.org/ReportNonProfit.aspx?ein=91-2051555&name=valencia-summit-swim-team#
This should satisfy all questions regarding their status and financials.
Page 5 of this return has a very detailed income and expense summary, one of the most detailed summaries I have ever seen.
Bill Reynolds says: May 30, 2010 at 11:18 pm “Hello Holly. Thanks for the good words – I do consider you a good hearted person. I am not anti swim team ”
The first thing Bill and Cam did when they got on the board almost two years ago was call for a vote to end the swim team. They lost 3-2. That’s in the Summit HOA records which you can look up.
Bill is simply lying when he says he is not anti-swim team.
MegR is actually not MegR and this anonymous person has no clue what he’s talking about or is simply a liar.
Yes you did!! I was there!!!! Bill has a great way of twisting words around, but the notes don’t lie Billy Boy!!
Bill- you were on the board as late as 2 days ago, why didn’t you just ask us to revise our contract? We have waited for your direction and responded favorably to everything the Summit board has asked us to do. If the board would like us to submit a revised contract, then they will let us know. As far as I can tell, they are SO busy responding to the Stratford guys that I’m sure we’ll be the first ones they get in touch with when they have time. All of them have full time jobs along with the crazy hours they pull at this HOA gig.
Holly, my fellow board members have ignored my input on this issue for a very long time which is why I could no longer stay on the board.
I’m just giving my perspective here in hopes that a reasonable resolution could be reached without wasting more HOA $$’s on legal fees. In my opinion if the existing contract does not reflect the current description of swim team activities it should be revised. Maybe if that happens along with resolving liability insurance issues and the swim team pays a nominal fee for use of the facilities then maybe all of this will promptly fade away. I’m just sayin’ the favoritism that the board has adopted will always cause disension in our community. You have to admit that problems have always persisted with that contract.
I can honestly tell you this: last March I felt I was receiving flimflam infornmation from my board members/VMG regarding insurance coverage and so out of desperation I called the insurance carriers and discovered that swim insurance coverage was not as it was being advertised. I was stunned. When I informed the board, I was chastised rather than the information being well received as a problem that needed to be solved.
Holly, as a concerned homeowner I would like nothing more than this to be resolved equitably without further legal expense or stress to everyone in our HOA. I would be happy to discuss this in person with you if it would help.
I’ve heard this “nominal fee” idea mentioned before (a.k.a. “use tax”…our government also likes to use the word “fee” instead of “tax”, as it sounds more palatable to the naive and uninformed). With that in mind, should there be a “fee” rebate for those residents who don’t use the amenities (pools, tennis courts) at all? I have three neighbors that I know of that can’t remember the last time they used any of the amenities. Should they be entitled to a rebate, for “under-usage” of the facilities? Maybe we can start a “use credit” program, modeled after the federal government’s carbon credit program. Perhaps the “users” of facilities should be able to purchase “use time” from “non-users” or “under-users”. Let’s form a committee to study that.
Using the same argument, there are residents of our community that use the tennis courts 3, 4, 5 days per week (an elite few, by the way). I don’t use our courts at all, and my wife is a member of a tennis club, so she uses those courts. I believe that the “users” and “over-users” of the courts should be charged a “fee” (particularly because some of them always bring non-residents with them). They are the ones wearing those courts out. Didn’t we just spend a lot of money resurfacing the courts, and replacing nets, shade structures, and wind screens? I don’t use those amenities, so why should part of my monthly dues go towards refurbishment of them? I should get a “use credit” or “rebate”. By the way, as I understand it, if someone shows up to play tennis, and those particular courts are filled, they often times drive a little ways away to some of our other courts…seems like that might be a good thought in regards to the pools too.
Now, as I drive through my community, I also see the same people walking their dogs on a daily basis (also an elite group of people). When I walk past the common area grounds, I often times see lots of brown grass where the pets have urinated. That requires extra time and expense on the part of our grounds people. Shouldn’t the elite dog walkers be charged a “use fee”? Shouldn’t I, as a non-dog owner/walker be entitled to a “use fee rebate”?
Now that I think of it, one of my neighbors used to use the Arroyo spa three days a week, to soak his bad back (they have since moved out of the Summit, to a place that doesn’t have any elitism going on). I never use the Arroyo spa. Should my neighbor have been charged a “use fee”, and should I be entitled to a “use rebate”?
I know, I know, quit being so ridiculous, Mike, the swim team issue is much different, so they need to pay a fee.
We have amenities in this community that are here to be used, and I would prefer that there be a ton of usage, and more of them! If/when I ever serve on the HOA board, I will be an advocate of expanding our amenities and expanding our community activities (and, by the way, I’m less than a year away from being 50 years old). Despite the fact that I don’t play tennis, I would be an advocate of creating tennis teams within the community, both youth and adult, as well as starting a lessons program. I would be an advocate of building a kids playground near one of our pools (yes, there will be liability associated with that…oh my!). I would be an advocate of more community groups forming and using the clubhouse for free, i.e. board game night, bridge night, ballroom dance night, etc.. Whether we like it or not, the Summit is in competition with other, more modern, communities in the area. What are we competing for? We’re competing for families-with-kids to move in! Without a stream of families moving in, this community will eventually die, along with property values. While there are some “empty nesters” out there that want to buy 3,000 square foot homes, there’s not enough of them to keep all the larger Summit homes filled. If the Summit gets the “rap” as being a stodgy, boring community, families looking to buy a house will bypass it and look elsewhere. If you don’t think that can and will happen, then you either have your head in the sand, or you’re so focused on the hospital expansion issue that you forget about other issues that the Summit has.
Bill- the insurance policy in place right now is brand new. There is no way you could have spoken to anyone at our insurance company to determine what our coverage is.
Honey is it or is it not true that one of your first meetings when you came on the board almost two years ago the renewal of the swim team contract was put on the agenda and after a lot of public testimony (I was there, remember?) the board voted 3-2 to renew the contract with you and Cam voting not to renew it.
True or not?
This is true, Stevo but you have distorted the reason we voted against the contract.
Bill… you voted NO….you tried to stop the swim team in every possible way, please stop trying to change history, I remeber at one meeting you wanted to have the board vote on fixing the deck 2 weeks before swim team started… knowing full well that it would take 2 months to complete the job…
Hey pal, try getting your facts straight for a change.
Oh, our facts are straight, maybe we should retrieve the Minutes from the meeting, that should clear it all up! Hate to tell Mr Reynold’s but you did vote against the team. No big deal you are entitled to your opinion and feelings, but “man up” to them.
STTP, indeed I did because the swim team contact violated our CC&R’s/pool use rules. Furthermore, our pool deck contractor offered an outstanding reduction in price if we immediately hired him. But no, pro swim team board members couldn’t make a prompt decision so we ended up having the work done at a much higher cost to the HOA in the winter when many weather delays caused the job to take much longer. Man up and use your real name!
It was explained to you at that meeting none of the Residents could use the pool for most of the summer, not so great beings it would be “Summer Time”. Your motives were to kill off the team, not for the discount. I’ll man up if you go first, Im a little Shy!!!
Bill, siwm team did not violate our CC& R’s, just by you saying it does not mean that its true. The bid you wanted the board to pass was a single bid, no other bids were submitted, when you were asked if you had even checked the single bidder out (previous jobs, references etc…) .. you said “NO, they just sound like a bunch of good guys, I trust them” wow, that is a good way to vote on a bid
Yes you did Mr. Renynolds!!!
Crystal,
Thanks for the invitation! I’ll for sure take you up on it, as I’m sure it will be enlightening.
I think that what Dodgersfan suggested would be a good idea. The three boards should get together and get to the bottom of the issues. They could use the clubhouse and get it for free due to the “good of the community clause.” I, personally, feel as though some face time would be good for all involved. As far as I can tell the swim team and it’s board have been willing to compromise. I think that Summit HOA and the Stratford’s need to find some common ground.
I’d be happy to moderate this although some of you I think would cry foul on that. However, I think this community has some wonderful gifted people that can rise to the challenge that not only finds a solution for all three groups but also will be beneficial to the community as a whole.
WOW… aren’t you a nice guy.. giving us your blessing…
Will… Can’t Starfford fight their own battles they have you being their mouth piece
Gee, I don’t recall mention anything about the Stratfords and their plight. I was trying to be helpful and find a common solution. I think you should rename yourself manufacturedtruthsquad because you really like to find truth from nothingness. Due to the fact that you are so unhelpful I’m going to have this be the last message I direct to you. Troll harder, sir.
Will.. I am really hurt…I have tears running down my cheeks.
That’s exactly what is needed, Will…a face-to-face meeting between all three entities. We’ve been ready and willing to do that since the Stratford people started grousing but it has not been allowed. We’ve been kept in the dark as it has been considered a “legal” matter. We are ready and waiting for the opportunity.
Swim team has done everything it can to please Stratfford Board and the few crazies…they do not need to do anymore, enough is enough, they do not need to justify their funding or show them anything… the Strafford Board wants to shut you down.. its plain and simple..this has been the plan since January of 2009, you can see that by the minutes of Strafford ..they want to shut you down..
Why not just let the stratford out of the Summit HOA?
It’s not like we need anything from the summit. We have our own pools and take care of ourselves.
With that being said….
We are not getting any actual policy paperwork that we have asked for many times.
1) We have never received the swim teams insurance policy
2) The Stratford Collection and Valencia Summit needs to be “named insured” (not additional insured)
3) Swim meets and clubhouse activities need to be covered
4) Stratford and Summit needs to be indemnified.
Fix 1 – 4 and it’s a non-issue.
If they have been provided. Please provide the name, date and time of who they were sent to.
Stratford Resident,
Your first comment above implies that you think there are factions trying to PREVENT the Stratford’s from seceding from the Summit HOA. Is that a fair analysis of that comment? I’m certainly not “in the know” on that topic, but I wouldn’t think there would be too many people within the non-Stratford Summit that would try to stand in your way. Get yourself a good $350/hr lawyer and have him check out the possibility. The Summit HOA will give you a hundred bucks and you can be on your way! We’ll maybe even give you two weeks transition time of using the Summit pools and tennis courts, assuming you can provide adequate liability insurance for that transition time, and name the Summit HOA as a “named insured”.
Of course, we all know that trying to split the Stratfords off would be very difficult, if not impossible, and not because of what any Summit residents want or don’t want (although, I’m sure there would be a lot of Stratford residents that would want to remain). If all the residents of the Stratfords actually owned their homes outright, it might be doable. However, it would be the lienholders (banks and other financial institutions that hold the mortgages) who would have the most say in the matter. If you could get all of those entities to agree to a split, then there’s a possibility. I guess you would need to convince them that their property would not lose any market value in the split, at least not decrease below the level of the value of the paper they are holding. So, get the Stratford board working on that…they have lots of your money to work with, right?
Sounds like they want out, they just dont wnat to pay-up. It was looked at a few years back, they know the cost, about $450,000 and that was 5 years ago so it must be a lot more now. They are using this as leverage to have us help pay bill, isnt that right “Stratford Resident”?
Say Hi to “Will Harwood” for me.
Gotta Love him, acting like the Middle man, clever boy!
Also…
The Summit broker admitted Philadelphia Insurance is aware of the swim team, that is why there are exclusions in the policy. That is the Summit Boards fault though…
You are all entitled to your own opinions…just not your own facts.
That is all that’s it’s about… you guys want out…and you are using a kids swim team to get that done..shame on you..shame on the intimidation and the threats…
No….don’t put words into my mouth.
This has NOTHING to do with the Stratford staying or leaving the summit HOA. This has never been discussed.
it has everything to do with that…that has been an issue for many years…your president has even brought it out in open sessions at the Summit HOA meetings.. you guys want out and are using our kids as pawns…
I have to say we all thought this was the intent of the Stratford board in the very beginning. It is all making sense now…
I agree, and from my understanding Straford Resident, it has been talked about from your board. If your not a Stratford board member how would you know that havent talked about it??? Maybe “they” should be encouraged to Man up!!!
Holly, that is the goal,they want our use our kids as leverage,how sad
And….again…this is what is about.
1) We have never received the swim teams insurance policy
2) The Stratford Collection and Valencia Summit needs to be “named insured” (not additional insured)
3) Swim meets and clubhouse activities need to be covered
4) Stratford and Summit needs to be indemnified.
Fix 1 – 4 and it’s a non-issue.
If they have been provided. Please provide the name, date and time of who they were sent to.
Amazing you focus on the off the cuff comment more than the facts.
I am going to just state this…
If 1-4 are done and provided…then the stratford HOA is lying.
If 1-4 are not done and not provided..then the seal are lying.
it’s that simple. that easy.
provide 1-4, not just a “yea we did it”, and it’s done.
simple.
are you on the Straford board…? you keep saying we…we have not received it. The summit HOA and the Seals have gone way beyond what they need to do,.. enough already let my kids swim..
“The summit HOA and the Seals have gone way beyond what they need to do”
provide 1-4, not just a “yea we did it”, and it’s done
Bottom line with your steps 1-4 to pure Seals freedom is that it is WAY more complicated than that and you know it. You know you have the huge budget of the Stratford HOA to pay attorneys and you are attacking a small neighborhood swim team who has nothing. Your attorney is stringing you along knowing that the burden of proof is on us when you post this simplistic demand to provide something that 1)isn’t appropriate and 2) takes time to get. I’m referring to the swim team insurance policy- you should know that we just got it since our contract was approved so late in the game. Insurance policies can take 4-6 weeks to show up. If you were so concerned with this, why didn’t you ask us for it directly 6 months ago instead of going directly through attorneys and swearing everyone to secrecy? At least be honest- you don’t want the swim team PERIOD. No matter what we do, no matter what we say, you’ll find a list of a few more conditions that need to be met.
So, this list is completely different from the list of demands we were given by the board a month ago. Since then, we’ve been scrambling to make you all happy. Now, this is a whole new list. Seems to me it might be another wild goose chase. But, in the interest of letting the Seals swim, we will now “get on this list” and spend hours and hours of time we don’t have trying yet again to make you all happy. It would have been so much simpler had you just come to us in the beginning. Why all of the lawyers, formality, and gag orders? Espcially if you have a child on the team- I’m more than accessible. I am at the pool with these kids 5 hours a day. I live 2 blocks from you. My phone number and email is posted everywhere. This is just exhausting.
And us lying???? Come on… we have never even seen these requests. That is unfair.
Holly, They keep changing the rules,that is the goal,to keep swim team scrambling, don’t give any more, enough is enough
Stratford resident – Number 2 item for Stratford to be listed as “named insured” as opposed to “additional insured” is news to me. I’m pretty sure the Summit HOA and Stratford HOA are listed as additional insured which seems to be the most appropriate status. Guess I need to look more carefully at the original list of demands from the Stratford HOA board (I don’t have access to that list). Are you suggesting this could be a deal breaker?
It’s just more stuff to throw at the Seals, they will just keep adding demands. It’s like dealing with terrorists, once you give in to one thing they ask for more and more, it never ends, because the end game is to shut the Seals down plain and simple.
“Insurance for Dummies”
1) It takes time to get a written policy. Thats why the Law requires proof of insurance, thats called a “Cer-tif-i-cate”.
That was provided.
2)The Swim team has Insurance to protect itself as well as other entities involved, thats called
“Ad-di-tion-al-ly In-sured”. Can’t name someone on a policy that isnt part of the Organization. And if you do name them it gives them just as much control over your policy. Any insurance agent in their right mind would advise against it, especially in this case, lots of red flags!!
3)All swim team events are covered
Thats called
“Swim-Team In-sur-ance”
4)The swim team has been Indemnified for 4 years. It’s in the,
Can you say “Con-tract”? If you are a resident as you say you are, you can retrieve it from the Valencia Summit HOA site.
I am not, I am a resident.
Again…stop dodging and ducking and answer the question. I say WE as I am a stratford resident.
My kid is also a seal and would like them to swim as well.
here is a question…
Kid from another association get’s hurt.
Sues the summit, and seals..and you MAY be covered.
Same accident for me? summit, seals AND the stratford get sued. I have additional liability.
Again…answer 1-4 and it’s done.
Just looked through every registration packet and rest assured, your “kid” is not a Seal.
No, it cant be Holly, Look again, Im sure “Stratford Resident” wouldnt fudge the truth? This whole case has been built on truth and good will, please say it isnt so!
Well, as a parent of a Seal, you should have signed the following Release at registration. As a Stratford homeowner, you are first and foremost, a member of the Summit HOA, and therefore, this waiver appears to indemnify you, via the Summit HOA (as Holly noted above, individual homeowners are protected by civil code of anyone trying to attach directly to homeowners, via a liability suit). I’ll assume that a sub-association, such as the Stratford HOA, would be considered an “affiliated organization”, which is also named. Of course, I’ll bet one could find a lawyer or two out there that could read this waiver any way they wanted, and with enough passion to recommend a lawsuit over it. That’s why we have such a great legal system! They loves to churn them some HOA coffers!
SANTA CLARITA SWIM LEAGUE
RELEASE AND WAIVER OF LIABILITY AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT
(Updated April 7, 2009)
Volunteer Participation
1). I,__________________________________________________________________________________________the parents/legal guardian of: ____________________________________________________________
acknowledge that I voluntarily allow my child to participate with the Summit Seals Swim Team, Old Orchard I Swim Team, Old Orchard II Swim Team, or the Valencia Hills Swim Team (each individually and collectively, the “Santa Clarita Swim League”) in the competition of swimming and any related activities.
Assumption of Risk
2). I AM VOLUNTARILY PERMITTING MY CHILD TO PARTICIPATE IN THESE ACTIVITIES WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE POTENTIAL DANGER INVOLVED. I HAVE MADE A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION OF THE RISKS RELATED TO THIS ACTIVITY AND ENTER INTO THIS AGREEMENT KNOWINGLY. I HEREBY AGREE TO ACCEPT ANY AND ALL RISKS OF INJURY OR DEATH, AND VERIFY THIS STATEMENT BY PLACING MY INITIALS HERE. ___________.
Release and Waiver
3). In consideration for being permitted by the Valencia Summit Homeowners Association, Old Orchard I Homeowners Association, Old Orchard II Homeowners Association, or Valencia Hills Homeowners Association (individually the “Association” or collectively the “Associations”), its Board of Directors, or one of its affiliated organizations to participate in these activities and use their facilities, I hereby agree that I, my assignees, heirs, distributes, guardians, and legal representatives will not make a claim against, sue, or attach the property or assets of the Associations, its Board of Directors or any of its affiliated organizations, its agents, employees, volunteers, or management companies for injury or death resulting from the negligence or other acts, howsoever caused, by any employee, agent, contractor or volunteer of the Valencia Summit Homeowners Association or any of its affiliated organizations as a result of my child’s participation in the Santa Clarita Swim League. I hereby release the Associations, its Board of Directors, its management company or affiliated organization, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers from all legal actions, claims, or demands, that I, my assignees, heirs, distributes, guardians, and legal representatives now have or may hereafter have for injury or death resulting from my child’s participation in the Santa Clarita Swim League.
Indemnification
4). I HEREBY AGREE TO INDEMNIFY AND SAVE AND HOLD HARMLESS the Associations, its Board of Directors, its Property Manager and its affiliated organizations, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers, and each of them from any loss, liability, damages, attorney’s fees or costs they may incur due to my child’s participation in the Santa Clarita Swim League, and whether caused by the negligence of any Association, its affiliated organizations, employees, agents, contractors or volunteers.
Knowing and Voluntary Execution
5). I HAVE CAREFULLY READ THIS AGREEMENT AND FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS. I AM AWARE THAT THIS IS A RELEASE AND WAIVER OF LIABILITY AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT BETWEEN MYSELF AND THE SANTA CLARITA SWIM LEAGUE, THE VALENCIA SUMMIT HOMEOWNER’S ASSOCIATION, OLD ORCHARD I HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION, OLD ORCHARD II HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION, AND VALENCIA HILLS HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION THROUGH ITS BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND/OR ITS AFFILIATED ORGANIZATIONS AND SIGN IT OF MY OWN FREE WILL. I FURTHER AGREE THAT NO ORAL REPRESENTATATIONS, STATEMENTS, OR INDUCEMENTS APART FROM THE FOREGOING WRITTEN AGREEMENT HAVE BEEN MADE.
“5). I HAVE CAREFULLY READ THIS AGREEMENT AND FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS. I AM AWARE THAT THIS IS A RELEASE AND WAIVER OF LIABILITY AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT BETWEEN MYSELF AND THE SANTA CLARITA SWIM LEAGUE, THE VALENCIA SUMMIT HOMEOWNER’S ASSOCIATION, OLD ORCHARD I HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION, OLD ORCHARD II HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION, AND VALENCIA HILLS HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION THROUGH ITS BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND/OR ITS AFFILIATED ORGANIZATIONS AND SIGN IT OF MY OWN FREE WILL. I FURTHER AGREE THAT NO ORAL REPRESENTATATIONS, STATEMENTS, OR INDUCEMENTS APART FROM THE FOREGOING WRITTEN AGREEMENT HAVE BEEN MADE.”
Odd…I don’t see the stratfords listed here ….
As an owner of a Stratford, are you not a member of the Summit HOA (as I suggested in my previous post)? This waiver covers you, it would appear. Could the Stratford HOA be an “affiliated organization”? One could argue that it is. What does the initial paperwork say about the relationship between the Summit HOA and the Stratford HOA. My bet is that in some magnificently legal way, the Summit HOA’s legal coverage probably throws an umbrella over it’s sub-association, The Stratford HOA. Why don’t you start researching that, so you can feel safer about this matter.
Yeah, we all believe you have a Swimmer on the team!! Please… do you think were all two tacos short of a combination platter! Man up, if your gonna go this far with it at least be honest.
no way this guy has a kid on swim team, he would have known about the release form that we all signed.. and who is he to ask for those things? How does he know what the board wants? They have not communicated with their memebrs, so sir (Mr. Stratford Resident) how do you know that is what they want? Mind reader?
Ok,I’ll bite on the latest smokescreen, the insurance stuff. I just finished reading some insurance stuff online and talking with the insurance company that insures by business (slow day today!). Being a named insured vs an additionally insured MIGHT get you a little more protection. It’s mostly (but not real often) used in the construction arena. My landlord and my franchisor are certificate holders and are “additionally insured”. My landlord is the largest landlord in the country, and they don’t seem to have the yearning to be a “name insured”. My insurance agent said they wouldn’t even consider (nor would it be necessary) to have them as “named insured”, unless I became partners with either of those two entities (or with someone else, for that matter), in which case all “named insured” would have the same obligation to pay the premium, and all “name insured” would have the right to cancel or amend the policy at any time. The latter fact is probably what really lit up the eyes of the Stratford board. The Seals make them a “named insured”, and then they proceed to cancel our policy, which would have the effect of shutting the team down. GOOD ONE!! You’re getting more creative (as the Stratford HOA reserves dwindle).
One more thing, Sports Team League insurance Covers the Team, however it’s Liabilty covers any wrong doing of the Swim Team as an Organization. Other swimmers and spectators are covered by the Teams Liability and actually they are covered again on their own League Policy that follows them around.
Remember all swim team members are HOA residents, so if they go to the pool at non swim team hours and some thing happens, the claim will be filled under the HOA insurance policy as a resident of the community. Any time that pool is open it’s a risk. So unless they want to fill the pool up with dirt, it is a Liability. The Insurance Rep. the other night tried to explain that to your Board member, I thought it was Clear as day, but he just wasn’t getting it. For a moment I thought the Rep. was going to have to start drawing Pictures. But then I thought you know they dont want the truth, they want it their way!
Every thing you mentioned has already been answered. These questions are just the same old “Talking Points” that have been pushed by the Stratford HOA Board and their agenda for the last Year.
So will 1-4 be answered?
ever? or are you just going to pick what you want to focus on?
Sounds like this information will eventually be provided to the Stratford HOA board. You can request the information from them. Maybe you’ll have better luck at getting information out of those guys than other residents have. In the meantime, why don’t you pound sand!
Will answering 1-4 make you happy?
Or are you just going to find something else for us to focus on?
You will get a policy the minute we get it- again it takes time- the policy was just ordered thanks to the late contract approval. Certificate is in place. Please be reasonable.
You already answered if meets and clubhouse activities are covered by talking to our underwriter for hours. But, we are happy to get assurance in writing from them. Again, we just got this so please give us some time. You are aware we cancelled the movie, the water polo, the lessons, and the teen sleepover? Those were the only activities in question. If we were trying to sneak something through that wasn’t insured, don’t you think we’d cancel everything?
It is very unlikely you will be a named insured as it is inappropriate to do so unless you want to subsidize the swim team in some way.
If re-writing the release of liability form to include the Stratfords would make you happy, then I’m sure we can get each of our swimmer’s parents to sign this release over. Again, it would have been so nice for you to come to us before everyone had already signed the release form.
So since we can’t name you on our policy, does it make sense for us to do any of this?
It’s very quite out there, too quite from the Strafford Board and the 2 supporters, might they be working on a TRO, how sad for our kids.
Shh…. be very, very, quite its Wabbit Season………
or in this case Seal Season….
it’s evident these people will do whatever it takes to kill our team, everything, the Insurance, the liability, the diving. it’s all a smokescreen, they won’t compromise, they won’t discuss anything, they are not reasonable people and therefore will not listen to reason. They want our team dead. They don’t care about the team, they pretend to be open but they are not.
I have no idea how they sleep at night.
No wonder their own hoa members are scared of them.
Does anyone know, is there a higher authority we can go to? some kind of regulatory board? Unfortunately we parents don’t have access to homeowners funds in the same way that these people do. Must be nice to use other peoples money to fund your personal vendetta’s.
Their must be something we can do to stop these unfair, unreasonable people.